Luke Mitchell - All quiet?

[Chris_Halkides]

What's changed? - Confirmation that SM had not seen nor heard his brother. Confirmation that he had been influenced into telling lies by his own mother. Confirmation that SM had not left home around 5:30pm but after 6:20pm.

I have been re-reading DF's cross-examination of SM, and what you wrote is incorrect.  He said that he could not remember a great many things and that he has a tendency to agree with what is put to him, including what is put to him by the police.

[Parky41]

I have been re-reading DF's cross-examination of SM, and what you wrote is incorrect.  He said that he could not remember a great many things and that he has a tendency to agree with what is put to him, including what is put to him by the police.

No, what I put is bang on correct. The AD swiftly showing the Jury just how selective SM's claimed, amnesia was. Don't blame the police for SM's selective memory. He lied, full stop. He had not seen any brother mashing tatties. But he certainly remembered, no problem at all, what he had never said to the police - Aye, ok then Chris! And he lied, changed his account, because his mother had helpfully filled in the blanks for him. Doesn't matter which way you swing it, or who you want to blame. He lied, he had not seen his brother.

[Parky41]

It matters not a jot whether there are four or four hundred openings before the wooden gate alleged sighting. The opening Turnbull was talking about, and he specifically mentioned the signpost, was to Barondale Cottages. From Google earth the sign post seems to no longer be there.

If Luke was not at the Barondale Cottage opening who did the 3 boys, Caroline Heatlie, Maureen O’Sullivan et al see standing at the opening?

I suggest you read, then re read, then keep on reading all of their testimony. Then tell me that this signpost was doubled up to give your 'two entry points' to BC? All because I pointed out to you that you were wrong, the opening prior to the estate is not for BC. I gave you a clue and led you to the white painted wall, as also mentioned by the AD. I highlighted all of the entry points to help you on your way.

Where on earth did I say anything of not being seen at BC in my post? I didn't. I was very clear in what I said. There is no evidence of LM sitting on the wall, around the bus stop, entrance to his estate (yet). No evidence therefore of LM having walked from there up and down, from BC's (twice) That is what I said. You decided to jump in with you usual nonsense. To deflect from the absolute fact, that the evidence still supports LM walking down into that vicinity and not up to it. Down after the sighting by F&W. That the evidence supports, that LM had not walked up to BC to see if he could see Jodi in sight at all. He had not been home, he had not walked to the estate entrance from 5:30pm. He had not then walked up to BC, and on it goes.

But and again, you knew that anyway, very much why you plodded in with your size 9's. Possibly still attempting to deflect away from that entry point? Because is is absolute confirmation, that LM did not have to walk past all those big windows as has been claimed. It runs all the way along the outskirts of the housing estate, entry points in to it.  Into the area where the Tarzan swing is also?

[faithlilly]

I suggest you read, then re read, then keep on reading all of their testimony. Then tell me that this signpost was doubled up to give your 'two entry points' to BC? All because I pointed out to you that you were wrong, the opening prior to the estate is not for BC. I gave you a clue and led you to the white painted wall, as also mentioned by the AD. I highlighted all of the entry points to help you on your way.

Where on earth did I say anything of not being seen at BC in my post? I didn't. I was very clear in what I said. There is no evidence of LM sitting on the wall, around the bus stop, entrance to his estate (yet). No evidence therefore of LM having walked from there up and down, from BC's (twice) That is what I said. You decided to jump in with you usual nonsense. To deflect from the absolute fact, that the evidence still supports LM walking down into that vicinity and not up to it. Down after the sighting by F&W. That the evidence supports, that LM had not walked up to BC to see if he could see Jodi in sight at all. He had not been home, he had not walked to the estate entrance from 5:30pm. He had not then walked up to BC, and on it goes.

But and again, you knew that anyway, very much why you plodded in with your size 9's. Possibly still attempting to deflect away from that entry point? Because is is absolute confirmation, that LM did not have to walk past all those big windows as has been claimed. It runs all the way along the outskirts of the housing estate, entry points in to it.  Into the area where the Tarzan swing is also?

The court transcripts haven’t been good for you and your ilk have they Parky?

From the testimony of various witnesses Luke spent much more time around the opening to Barondale cottages than sitting on the wall at the end of his road. Of course extrapolating from your point about Luke not being seen on the wall, he wasn’t seen leaving the house at the time he must have done to commit the murder yet, if you are right he must have done. Further if you discount the witness who allegedly saw Jodi leaving the house after 5pm and those who saw her being followed by Stock Man, as you obviously do, is there any proof Jodi actually left the house?

Of course we know she did and that’s the paradox in your argument. While discarding the dearth of witnesses for points you wish to hammer home you illuminate beyond reason the absence of witnesses for the opposite argument. You really are too clever to be this silly. While there are at least 6 witnesses who saw Luke at or near the opening to Barondale Cottages only two, of all the cars and people on the road that night, allegedly saw Luke at that gate. Further if he went straight from murdering Jodi to home to change to be back out on the Newbattle Road by around 6pm by your logic there must be someone who saw him as you can’t get to Luke’s house without breaking cover at some point. If there’s no witnesses then it didn’t happen. Isn’t that your position?

As to your 80 minute timeline it’s bumpkin. You know it and I do.

BTW what do you think of this snippet from the testimony of Lorraine Fleming?

“Lord Nimmo Smith: And you think that was in some way similar to something that you'd seen?

Lorraine Fleming: Yes.

Lord Nimmo Smith: Similar to what?

Lorraine Fleming: The person that I'd seen down NEWBATTLE ABBEY.”

Surely it should have been RDP? Some leakage perhaps?

Kind of  adds proof to the claim in Dr Lean’s book that a witness came to her to say that Fleming and Walsh first claimed to see a youth near Newbattle Abbey. Don’t you think?

[Parky41]

The court transcripts haven’t been good for you and your ilk have they Parky?

From the testimony of various witnesses Luke spent much more time around the opening to Barondale cottages than sitting on the wall at the end of his road. Of course extrapolating from your point about Luke not being seen on the wall, he wasn’t seen leaving the house at the time he must have done to commit the murder yet, if you are right he must have done. Further if you discount the witness who allegedly saw Jodi leaving the house after 5pm and those who saw her being followed by Stock Man, as you obviously do, is there any proof Jodi actually left the house?

Of course we know she did and that’s the paradox in your argument. While discarding the dearth of witnesses for points you wish to hammer home you illuminate beyond reason the absence of witnesses for the opposite argument. You really are too clever to be this silly. While there are at least 6 witnesses who saw Luke at or near the opening to Barondale Cottages only two, of all the cars and people on the road that night, allegedly saw Luke at that gate. Further if he went straight from murdering Jodi to home to change to be back out on the Newbattle Road by around 6pm by your logic there must be someone who saw him as you can’t get to Luke’s house without breaking cover at some point. If there’s no witnesses then it didn’t happen. Isn’t that your position?

As to your 80 minute timeline it’s bumpkin. You know it and I do.

BTW what do you think of this snippet from the testimony of Lorraine Fleming?

“Lord Nimmo Smith: And you think that was in some way similar to something that you'd seen?

Lorraine Fleming: Yes.

Lord Nimmo Smith: Similar to what?

Lorraine Fleming: The person that I'd seen down NEWBATTLE ABBEY.”

Surely it should have been RDP? Some leakage perhaps?

Kind of  adds proof to the claim in Dr Lean’s book that a witness came to her to say that Fleming and Walsh first claimed to see a youth near Newbattle Abbey. Don’t you think?

'Let's stick to transcripts and leave Dr Leans book out of it -----' Unless?

It's interesting and a breath of fresh air. To have you, to have JE and so forth, accept fully that F&W did indeed see LM and no one else. Poor MK, all those yrs of being hounded because of the enablers. DF even attempting an appeal. Makes you wonder why?

So, 'one' says they saw a male down Newbattle Abbey in their 1st statement. Where down NA? Were you in the grounds? No silly, I meant on NR. Ah, so was he standing at the entrance, no I saw him further up than that. Can you tell us where? Yes. And on goes the clarification of where exactly on NR they saw LM, as with their fellow traveller. It is as you say, you're cleverer than that, you know how it goes, don't you?

NR is approx a mile long, split really into 3 sections for those local. NG area, Newbattle Abbey area and Eskbank. F&W into the Newbattle Abbey area.   

CH next? I saw a male standing at a driveway on NR. That's it, the police didn't do a damn thing to determine where that sighting took place, they just accepted it was a driveway out of several on that R'd in the Newbattle area? Of course not, you're cleverer than that. You know the procedure, determining where these sightings had taken place.

We don't swap low wooden gate for high stone pillars. We don't swap looking over to trees for into Newbattle Abbey Cres. Enclosed to out in the open.  We don't swap kerb side to far side, passenger side to driver side. JE who has placed F&W travelling in the opposite direction? Jogger further down the hill. We don't swap down a hill to on the flat. And on it goes, scraping and scraping away, because you know it was LM they saw. But I guess the were both "cajoled" by the police into that 100% change of damn well everything, eh?

It shows how the witness generally described that middle area, as others do. They refer to it as Newbattle Abbey because that section is renowned for the Abbey.

[Parky41]

'Let's stick to transcripts and leave Dr Leans book out of it -----' Unless?

It's interesting and a breath of fresh air. To have you, to have JE and so forth, accept fully that F&W did indeed see LM and no one else. Poor MK, all those yrs of being hounded because of the enablers. DF even attempting an appeal. Makes you wonder why?

So, 'one' says they saw a male down Newbattle Abbey in their 1st statement. Where down NA? Were you in the grounds? No silly, I meant on NR. Ah, so was he standing at the entrance, no I saw him further up than that. Can you tell us where? Yes. And on goes the clarification of where exactly on NR they saw LM, as with their fellow traveller. It is as you say, you're cleverer than that, you know how it goes, don't you?

NR is approx a mile long, split really into 3 sections for those local. NG area, Newbattle Abbey area and Eskbank. F&W into the Newbattle Abbey area.   

CH next? I saw a male standing at a driveway on NR. That's it, the police didn't do a damn thing to determine where that sighting took place, they just accepted it was a driveway out of several on that R'd in the Newbattle area? Of course not, you're cleverer than that. You know the procedure, determining where these sightings had taken place.

We don't swap low wooden gate for high stone pillars. We don't swap looking over to trees for into Newbattle Abbey Cres. Enclosed to out in the open.  We don't swap kerb side to far side, passenger side to driver side. JE who has placed F&W travelling in the opposite direction? Jogger further down the hill. We don't swap down a hill to on the flat. And on it goes, scraping and scraping away, because you know it was LM they saw. But I guess the were both "cajoled" by the police into that 100% change of damn well everything, eh?

It shows how the witness generally described that middle area, as others do. They refer to it as Newbattle Abbey because that section is renowned for the Abbey.

Do you mean like ignoring the multitude of witnesses who saw LM wearing that type of jacket pre - murder? Lovely, all those cars, adding that hype, no one else saw LM at the gate, yet several saw him in a small time frame around 6pm? You know where this is going, don't you?

Like the hype of those giant windows, can't possibly not be seen. Yet nothing, nada, zilch of LM sitting on that wall, around the bus stop, directly at the entrance of his estate. Nothing of him for 25mins from CH to the boys return on the cycle. Goodness me Faith, where the hell was he? Cars in and out the Abbey, cars in and out the estate. Calls his mother, claims it was to ask if Jodi had been to the house, how odd. Did she fly past him then? You know and I know, because you are cleverer than that, he was waiting on no girlfriend. Not for 5mins and not for 80mins.

[Kenmair]

Talking of the transcripts, has the lesser spotted Lean ever addressed why she distorted and omitted key facts in her book? She claimed to have all the transcripts even though many had not been transcribed and as far as I can see has gone into hiding since they were published unable even to update on the update.

[faithlilly]

'Let's stick to transcripts and leave Dr Leans book out of it -----' Unless?

It's interesting and a breath of fresh air. To have you, to have JE and so forth, accept fully that F&W did indeed see LM and no one else. Poor MK, all those yrs of being hounded because of the enablers. DF even attempting an appeal. Makes you wonder why?

So, 'one' says they saw a male down Newbattle Abbey in their 1st statement. Where down NA? Were you in the grounds? No silly, I meant on NR. Ah, so was he standing at the entrance, no I saw him further up than that. Can you tell us where? Yes. And on goes the clarification of where exactly on NR they saw LM, as with their fellow traveller. It is as you say, you're cleverer than that, you know how it goes, don't you?

NR is approx a mile long, split really into 3 sections for those local. NG area, Newbattle Abbey area and Eskbank. F&W into the Newbattle Abbey area.   

CH next? I saw a male standing at a driveway on NR. That's it, the police didn't do a damn thing to determine where that sighting took place, they just accepted it was a driveway out of several on that R'd in the Newbattle area? Of course not, you're cleverer than that. You know the procedure, determining where these sightings had taken place.

We don't swap low wooden gate for high stone pillars. We don't swap looking over to trees for into Newbattle Abbey Cres. Enclosed to out in the open.  We don't swap kerb side to far side, passenger side to driver side. JE who has placed F&W travelling in the opposite direction? Jogger further down the hill. We don't swap down a hill to on the flat. And on it goes, scraping and scraping away, because you know it was LM they saw. But I guess the were both "cajoled" by the police into that 100% change of damn well everything, eh?

It shows how the witness generally described that middle area, as others do. They refer to it as Newbattle Abbey because that section is renowned for the Abbey.

Absolutely it was Luke Fleming and Walsh saw, just not where they said.

As to the Newbattle Abbey thing, quite a coincidence then that a witness told Dr Lean exactly what Fleming told Turnbull on the stand.

[faithlilly]

Do you mean like ignoring the multitude of witnesses who saw LM wearing that type of jacket pre - murder? Lovely, all those cars, adding that hype, no one else saw LM at the gate, yet several saw him in a small time frame around 6pm? You know where this is going, don't you?

Like the hype of those giant windows, can't possibly not be seen. Yet nothing, nada, zilch of LM sitting on that wall, around the bus stop, directly at the entrance of his estate. Nothing of him for 25mins from CH to the boys return on the cycle. Goodness me Faith, where the hell was he? Cars in and out the Abbey, cars in and out the estate. Calls his mother, claims it was to ask if Jodi had been to the house, how odd. Did she fly past him then? You know and I know, because you are cleverer than that, he was waiting on no girlfriend. Not for 5mins and not for 80mins.

Who are you trying to convince?

Luke is seen by a youth by Barondale Cottages. 40 minutes later he’s still in the exact same spot as before. So…..he does what? Goes where in the time? In the same clothes.

No one sees him leave the house but we know he did.
No one sees Jodi leave the house but we know she did.

Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence. Surely you know that?

[Parky41]

Talking of the transcripts, has the lesser spotted Lean ever addressed why she distorted and omitted key facts in her book? She claimed to have all the transcripts even though many had not been transcribed and as far as I can see has gone into hiding since they were published unable even to update on the update.

Kenmair - I know JE has been pushing massively for her to address her wrongs, as have others. No doubt one will in some way play the victim? Ironic as that may be, considering the many people that have been victimized because of her/their actions? Long may the exposure of their wrongs continue.

[Chris_Halkides]

Do you mean like ignoring the multitude of witnesses who saw LM wearing that type of jacket pre - murder?

Testimony from witnesses who made this claim after a photograph of LM was published wearing a parka has almost no probative value.  A sales receipt for a pre-murder parka would be far less open to interpretation.  CCTV footage or a photograph of LM would also be good evidence.

[Parky41]

Testimony from witnesses who made this claim after a photograph of LM was published wearing a parka has almost no probative value.  A sales receipt for a pre-murder parka would be far less open to interpretation.  CCTV footage or a photograph of LM would also be good evidence.

Yawn.

[Kenmair]

Kenmair - I know JE has been pushing massively for her to address her wrongs, as have others. No doubt one will in some way play the victim? Ironic as that may be, considering the many people that have been victimized because of her/their actions? Long may the exposure of their wrongs continue.

I didn't know that. Mind you, JE never cared much for facts and was happy to go along with it. I doubt we'll see much of Lean now she's been ousted as leader and no doubt in "early retirement".

[faithlilly]

Testimony from witnesses who made this claim after a photograph of LM was published wearing a parka has almost no probative value.  A sales receipt for a pre-murder parka would be far less open to interpretation.  CCTV footage or a photograph of LM would also be good evidence.

Didn’t you know? There is a picture of Luke wearing the parka…at a concert. Trouble is no one’s seen it and there’s no evidence of its existence in any of the already published trial transcripts. Perhaps it was found after the trial? Okay but you’d have to been an absolute fool to believe that a photograph like that wouldn’t fetch a pretty high price from some tabloid or other.

I believe the concert story has the same source as the judge’s directions nonsense. Neither has there ever been a smidgen of evidence for.

[Mr Apples]

Didn’t you know? There is a picture of Luke wearing the parka…at a concert. Trouble is no one’s seen it and there’s no evidence of its existence in any of the already published trial transcripts. Perhaps it was found after the trial? Okay but you’d have to been an absolute fool to believe that a photograph like that wouldn’t fetch a pretty high price from some tabloid or other.

I believe the concert story has the same source as the judge’s directions nonsense. Neither has there ever been a smidgen of evidence for.

It's possible the photographic evidence of the parka will eventually emerge amongst the deluge of transcripts still to be uploaded. It's early days. You say that the Prosecution and the press would have been all over the aforementioned photographic evidence due to how incriminating it would've been, but, the press never reported on this very complex 42-day trial every single day; and, to compound the press's problems, different reporters and journalists would have been assigned to the trial regularly, inevitably resulting in reports and articles that were not consistent or accurate (and, of course, some journalists are better than others -- so I suspect a few of them were out of their depth with this trial). It's definitely possible the photograph, as valuable as it was to the Prosecution, wasn't reported on. As for the Prosecution gobbling up such an extremely damning piece of evidence, maybe they did -- but maybe the Jury (or some of them) didn't register just how significant it was. Of course, perhaps they did, and it played an important role in securing that guilty verdict.

Don't forget, Faithlilly, there allegedly was also cctv footage of LM wearing the parka pre-murder at St David's High school shown in court. That still might show up in the transcripts, too (maybe a big deal was not made out of this piece of evidence either, for the same reasons as I highlighted with the photo).