Any news on JB's 2025 CCRC application?

[adam]

So what do you think burned Nevills back then,General?

Bamber burned Nevill's back with a metal object.

His 2012 CCRC application says this was done with the rifle minus silencer.

Experts say it would take 5 minutes to heat this on an Aga plate.

Most people think this was to check for signs of life.

[adam]

OK,i'll give you my opinion about the burns to Nevills back, General, why I think the Aga made them and how this evidence may exonerate Jeremy Bamber.
The truth is, an adequate explanation for the burns was never found, nor indeed why the killer would inflict them anyway. Torture was suggested, checking for signs of life, or simply when Nevill was frog marched to the kitchen, none of which make much logical sense really!
The marks, or two of them at least were roughly the same size as the rifle barell so it was just assumed this was what made the marks, after all, no one could come up with a better explanation at the time.
But then, after many years, Yvonne Hartley and JB himself came up with the idea that the Aga may have been responsible for the marks, after all, it was the only other source of heat in the house.
So they asked Philip Boyce to look into the possibility of the Aga burning Nevills back, and lo and behold if someone was lying on their side with their back against the Aga the handle and other protruding parts could cause burn marks remarkably similar in size and shape to those found on Nevills back.
The spacings matched too, allowing for Nevills neck jutting forward where the top larger burn was made, so could this really be coincidence? I mean, what would the odds be of someone intentionally burning Nevills back and the marks almost matching exactly those which could be inflicted by the Aga?
Surely it is far more logical that the marks occurred accidentally rather than any other suggestion that has been made?
Now to answer your other questions, General!
Yes, I believe it has been claimed that Nevill often showered and changed into his pyjamas down stairs before having a G and T in the sitting room before retiring to bed,so this may have been where he was when Sheila came down stairs to get the rifle.
Oh yes, you ask why the Aga was on! Well Yvonne explained that the Aga was on 24/7, it was the only source of heating and hot water, not sure if there was another cooker in the kitchen or not. Anyway, a lot of hot water would be needed at least with the extra guests in the house,besides, I think the temperature guage can be seen in the crime scene photos.
So, Nevill hears Sheila in the kitchen and goes to investigate, and I believe that it is at this time that he ends up lying beside the Aga burning his back!
You see, you ask how Sheila overpowered Nevill, General, and the answer is she simply took him by surprise by whacking him on the head with the butt of the rifle, so ferociously that it broke the stock of the rifle and caused fractures to Nevills skull. This may have happened quite unexpectedly after a short argument/conversation around midnight sending Nevill to the floor in front of the Aga where his back would be burned until around 3.00 when a shaken brain injured Nevill would regain conciousness and frantically phone JB before staggering up stairs.meanwhile Sheila had killed the family unhindered and Nevill would be next!
I put this theory to the JB campaign over on Twitter, needless to say they disagree, they believe Nevill was dead while lying against the Aga and was moved to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
Anyway, whatever happened, surely the Aga theory is important 'new evidence' if accepted by the CCRC?

The CT will not agree with your theory.

It does not support the narrative they are trying to project - the police disturbed the crime scene pre photos but have never said they did.

[adam]

Nothing will change my mind, save for some hitherto unseen groundbreaking evidence surfacing.
Nev's burns were probably incurred peri-mortem, perhaps Bamber, having subdued him sufficiently, prodded him to check if he was still alive, then turned him over and delivered a coup de grace.

Bamber mistakenly turned this in to a two person whodunnit with his dodgy phonecalls. If he'd have given it some more thought he could have introduced a third person, giving rise to reasonable doubt, but he wasn't as clever as he thought he was. Even the utterly idiotic, incompetent Essex police somehow managed to get to the truth of his simple ruse eventually. Using the rifle was a necessity, but also his undoing; he wasn't able to introduce a third party, as they wouldn't have access to it.

As an aside, that rifle is almost as long as Sheila was tall. I'm exaggerating, but wee Sheila wielding a metre long weapon weighing about 4kg that requires the casual user to aim down the barrel in the confines of those rooms - and never missed. She should have considered taking it up professionally.

Agree it was to check for signs of life. No point torturing a man who at best was unconcious and at worst dead.

[The General]

Well Boyce's Aga theory just may be that groundbreaking evidence if you accept his findings, yet you prefer to dismiss his evidence in favour of far less logical reasons for the burns, Genaral!
If I read you correctly, Nevill was slumped over the scuttle in the kitchen, motionless, after being shot in the face and body, and was dying or dead, and that rather than make sure with a head shot like the other victims, Bamber opted to check for signs of life instead by burning Nevills back and checking for a reaction?
So Bamber heats something up and burns Nevills back, ist burn-no reaction, 2nd burn-again no reaction, oh well, maybe third time lucky? yes sure enough, with the 3rd burn Nevill reacts in some way so Bamber shoots him four times in the head! Not once, four times!!
Oh and it just happens that the three random burns can be more or less replicated by the Aga knobs!
In all honesty isn't it simpler just to accept that the Aga did indeed cause the burns, General?
Isn't that the logical thing to do?
Funnily enough, I found a thread on Red here from around 2012 in which the burns to Nevills back were discussed, this was obviously many years before the Boyce evidence. And in this thread, John and Puglove pointed out that the three burns were different sizes and shapes, not sure what point they were making at the time, but obviously if the marks were indeed made by 'different' parts of the Aga then of course they wont look the same in appearance, will they?? As opposed to three burns made by the 'same' object!
Wont you consider the possibility that Boyce has hit the nail on the head , General?

I've let you ramble on to permit you to debunk your own case.
The knobs, Joe, the knobs. I assume they're Bakelite; extemely poor heat conductor and used for a reason - they don't get hot, otherwise the user would burn their hands every time they touched them.

Can anyone think of something that would be hot enough to superficially burn skin in that kitchen during the attack?

....and you still haven't explained how 7st 6lb Bambi managed to subdue the farm-fit 15st Nevill.

[Joe Blogs]

Bamber burned Nevill's back with a metal object.

His 2012 CCRC application says this was done with the rifle minus silencer.

Experts say it would take 5 minutes to heat this on an Aga plate.

Most people think this was to check for signs of life.

Well as I said Adam,if it was the rifle barrel why weren't the three marks identical instead of various shapes and sizes? Even John and Puglove pointed this out years ago!
No no, the Aga evidence holds up, no question!

[APRIL]

I've let you ramble on to permit you to debunk your own case.
The knobs, Joe, the knobs. I assume they're Bakelite; extemely poor heat conductor and used for a reason - they don't get hot, otherwise the user would burn their hands every time they touched them.

Can anyone think of something that would be hot enough to superficially burn skin in that kitchen during the attack?

....and you still haven't explained how 7st 6lb Bambi managed to subdue the farm-fit 15st Nevill.

I can tell you a little bit about Aga's as we have one exactly the same model as the Bamber's. The only difference is that theirs was used to heat water. Their kitchen, like ours, appears fairly cramped. Aga's throw out vast amounts of heat. Ours runs 24/7 because it's out primary cooking method. The Bamber's had alternative means of cooking, ergo, it seems reasonable that during summer months, the Aga would be turned off and an emersion heater used to provide hot water.

So how hot do Aga's get? I don't imagine you need to be told that it's not a good idea to put one's hands on the hot plates, even though one is less hot than the other. The hot plate covers are hot enough to air small items of clothes. However, Boyce and his crew weren't dealing with the top, they were dealing with the oven, of which there are two, a roasting oven at the top and a slow oven at the bottom. I can open the slow oven door without oven gloves, and providing the handles of the dish aren't metal, I can remove a cooked item without them. Under no circumstances could I touch the handle of the roasting oven without protection.

The various knobs/handles to which Boyce refers to as having made burns? I have measured ours numerous times. It's not just about the distance from one handle to another. They not only vary in shape, but they also stand proud of another. The 'body' Boyce uses for his experiment is, obviously! very much alive so thus is able to 'adjust' himself to fit against the handles. Something Nevill wouldn't have been capable of doing. My calculations -for what they're worth- show the distance between handles doesn't relate to the distance shown on the pigskin experiment, and burning would only apply if the Aga was hot.

I hope this is useful.

[Joe Blogs]

The CT will not agree with your theory.

It does not support the narrative they are trying to project - the police disturbed the crime scene pre photos but have never said they did.

I know the campaign narrative is different, Adam!
But not as to 'what' caused the burns, only as to 'when' they were formed!

[Joe Blogs]

Agree it was to check for signs of life. No point torturing a man who at best was unconcious and at worst dead.

Why three burns and then a further 'four' shots, Adam?
That doesn't make much sense to me!

[Joe Blogs]

I've let you ramble on to permit you to debunk your own case.
The knobs, Joe, the knobs. I assume they're Bakelite; extemely poor heat conductor and used for a reason - they don't get hot, otherwise the user would burn their hands every time they touched them.

Can anyone think of something that would be hot enough to superficially burn skin in that kitchen during the attack?

....and you still haven't explained how 7st 6lb Bambi managed to subdue the farm-fit 15st Nevill.

One knob, which looks like metal to me, and two other parts which are not designed to be handled, General!
Why couldn't Sheila bash Nevill on the head with the rifle? You talk as if she was completely immobile, no weight lifting champion but i'm sure she could swing a rifle in a psychotic state surely? One unexpected blow and Nevill was out cold with a fractured skull. No problem whatsoever!

[Joe Blogs]

I can tell you a little bit about Aga's as we have one exactly the same model as the Bamber's. The only difference is that theirs was used to heat water. Their kitchen, like ours, appears fairly cramped. Aga's throw out vast amounts of heat. Ours runs 24/7 because it's out primary cooking method. The Bamber's had alternative means of cooking, ergo, it seems reasonable that during summer months, the Aga would be turned off and an emersion heater used to provide hot water.

So how hot do Aga's get? I don't imagine you need to be told that it's not a good idea to put one's hands on the hot plates, even though one is less hot than the other. The hot plate covers are hot enough to air small items of clothes. However, Boyce and his crew weren't dealing with the top, they were dealing with the oven, of which there are two, a roasting oven at the top and a slow oven at the bottom. I can open the slow oven door without oven gloves, and providing the handles of the dish aren't metal, I can remove a cooked item without them. Under no circumstances could I touch the handle of the roasting oven without protection.

The various knobs/handles to which Boyce refers to as having made burns? I have measured ours numerous times. It's not just about the distance from one handle to another. They not only vary in shape, but they also stand proud of another. The 'body' Boyce uses for his experiment is, obviously! very much alive so thus is able to 'adjust' himself to fit against the handles. Something Nevill wouldn't have been capable of doing. My calculations -for what they're worth- show the distance between handles doesn't relate to the distance shown on the pigskin experiment, and burning would only apply if the Aga was hot.

I hope this is useful.

So, do the parts that Boyce refers to get hot, April? Thats all we want to know!
I imagine however they do, else his experiment would be a non starter as it were!

[APRIL]

One knob, which looks like metal to me, and two other parts which are not designed to be handled, General!
Why couldn't Sheila bash Nevill on the head with the rifle? You talk as if she was completely immobile, no weight lifting champion but i'm sure she could swing a rifle in a psychotic state surely? One unexpected blow and Nevill was out cold with a fractured skull. No problem whatsoever!

So all one has to do is prove she was having a psychotic episode. Something she was adequately medicated against such occurring.

[Joe Blogs]

So all one has to do is prove she was having a psychotic episode. Something she was adequately medicated against such occurring.

In my opinion, all one has to do is prove that the Aga burned Nevills back, April, then everything else falls into place for a guilty Sheila!

[APRIL]

So, do the parts that Boyce refers to get hot, April? Thats all we want to know!
I imagine however they do, else his experiment would be a non starter as it were!

Obviously he used a hot Aga for the experiment or there'd have been no point in doing it! If the Bamber's Aga was on, ie cooking mode, it would be hot. What we don't know is how hot/warm/tepid/cool/cold was the Bamber Aga.

[APRIL]

In my opinion, all one has to do is prove that the Aga burned Nevills back, April, then everything else falls into place for a guilty Sheila!

Without knowing if it was on, how is such possible? It might equally be said that they were freezer burns. Ice burns in the same way as heat.

[adam]

I know the campaign narrative is different, Adam!
But not as to 'what' caused the burns, only as to 'when' they were formed!

Thought the CT are saying the 'what' is the aga caused the burns.