The tracker dogs

[Robittybob1]

You still dont need 35 pages to type the basics

Each post adds to the length e.g. you saying "You still don't need 35 pages to type the basics" and my reply is another 14% of another page.

[mercury]

Each post adds to the length e.g. you saying "You still don't need 35 pages to type the basics" and my reply is another 14% of another page.

Ok, then feel free to carry on for whatever reason

But do make sure you get the basics right before speculating on everything else

[misty]

How is it simple?

I  agree it's not simple, Robittybob.
In the case of Sierra Lamar (California, 2012) tracker dogs were brought in soon after the girl was reported missing and lost track of her scent at the end of her driveway - rather like in MM's case, very close to the last place she was known to have been. It later transpired she had walked further up the street, before probably being bundled into a vehicle. Whilst her abductor has been identified & charged, her body has not been found.
http://www.ksbw.com/article/sierra-lamar-may-have-not-made-it-past-her-driveway-search-crews-say/1049356

IMO it is foolhardy to place any credence in the Portuguese tracker dogs reported route, whatever they used for scenting, simply because they retraced steps Madeleine & several others were known to have taken. The tracker dogs did also not track scent into the stairwells & up the stairs so there must be another explanation for the dogs' interest at 4G & 5J.

[mercury]

My point misty was more about arguments onhere whether tracker dogs were used, ferryman insists they were not, files say otherwise, dint they? Its that simple little detail.....

[misty]

My point misty was more about arguments onhere whether tracker dogs were used, ferryman insists they were not, files say otherwise, dint they? Its that simple little detail.....

I don't know why you doubt the words of Harrison, as previously quoted by Ferryman. Harrison was involved in the training of Keela so I guess he knew the right questions to ask the PJ/GNR about the capabilities & training of the S&R dogs used.

[mercury]

I don't know why you doubt the words of Harrison, as previously quoted by Ferryman. Harrison was involved in the training of Keela so I guess he knew the right questions to ask the PJ/GNR about the capabilities & training of the S&R dogs used.

I dont doubt harrison per se
So are you asserting NO tracker dogs were used? Are you?

And dont forget ferryman has quoted harrison as regards thecadaver dog searches inthe past in a cherry picked way to exclude oertinent info ..so why would anyone trust his quotes here or anywhere else

[misty]

I dont doubt harrison oer se
So are you asserting NO tracker dogs were used? Are you?

It's like Ferryman said......air scenting, not ground-scenting. Generic not specific scent training.

[mercury]

It's like Ferryman said......air scenting, not ground-scenting. Generic not specific scent training.

So no reason to ask for articles to follow specific scent, why were they asked for?????

[Robittybob1]

It's like Ferryman said......air scenting, not ground-scenting. Generic not specific scent training.

Harrison drew up some enormous reports which could have missed finer detail like the two trackers dogs in amongst all the air scenting dogs.  If he thought all this extensive work had been done further afield he should have at least recommended all apartment searches with tracker dogs.

[misty]

So no reason to ask for articles to follow specific scent, why were they asked for?????

Because they were better at scenting than the GNR patrol dogs.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

*snipped*
6. At 00.40, given the complexity of the situation that seemed to surround the disappearance, the GNR post commander requested reinforcements from two sniffer dog teams from the Portimao territorial group to help in the searches, considering the possibility that the girl could have left the apartment on foot and could be somewhere not very far from the OC resort.

7. At 01.00 after the group commander had been briefed about the situation, telephone contact was made with an official from the Queluz GNR school, with the aim of their releasing search and rescue dog teams, seeing as these are specially trained to find missing persons, which is not the case with the Portimao sniffer dogs, which are essentially patrol dogs.

[G-Unit]

You still dont need 35 pages to type the basics

The problem, mercury was that it was all settled then a whole new group of people arrived and it all had to be explained again.

The reason I got involved was to refute ferryman's claims that no tracker dogs were used. They clearly were.

I find the subject interesting because the route taken by the dogs made no sense initially because there was no reason to believe MM ever went that way.

After the route was tracked three times [twice on 4th and once on the 8th] her father informed the PJ on the 10th that she had indeed been that way on the Tuesday or Wednesday when they left by the front door to go to the creche. She and her siblings, it seems, had run away! Now either the parents didn't see them go, giving them a head start, or they couldn't catch them. Perhaps they inherited their parent's running ability.

He also explained that their normal method of entering and exiting the apartment with the children was by using the patio door. Kate and the children used the steps and he alone used the front door, opening and locking the patio doors for the others. That must have been a difficult job with three little ones. I wonder if he helped? Four times that was done on Thursday, he said.

That explains why the dogs followed a route taken by MM one or two days earlier. Had the front door been used all the time they should have left the passage in front of the apartments, gone across the car park to the road and turned right at the T Junction; the route used by the other families.

[misty]

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/animal-facts/sar-dog2.htm
Not all SAR dogs perform the same type of search. Some dogs are tracking (or trailing) dogs, and others are air-scent (or area-search) dogs. The types overlap, but the distinction between the two guides are the training process and how the dog participates in missions. Tracking dogs work with their nose to the ground. They follow a trail of human scent -- typically heavy skin particles that fall quickly to the ground or onto bushes -- through any type of terrain. These dogs are not searching, they're following: Tracking dogs need a "last seen" starting point, an article with the person's scent on it to work from and an uncontaminated trail.

For tracking, time is an issue. If a child disappears from a school playground or a inmate escapes from a prison, a tracking dog might be called in to follow the person's scent immediately after the disappearance, before other search groups and law-enforcement personnel contaminate the scent trail.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The specialist dogs were air scenting, not tracking.

[G-Unit]

It's like Ferryman said......air scenting, not ground-scenting. Generic not specific scent training.

May I suggest you read the thread where the evidence appears repeatedly instead of accepting and repeating ferryman's misunderstanding?

Only the tracker dogs were given an item to sniff, not the other S and R dogs.
Some S and R dogs arrived from Lisbon at 8am. They sniffed nothing.
It was the two tracker dogs who sniffed the towel. They arrived at 11pm on 4th, with their handler Fernandes, the only one who handled two dogs.

[Robittybob1]

Because they were better at scenting than the GNR patrol dogs.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

*snipped*
6. At 00.40, given the complexity of the situation that seemed to surround the disappearance, the GNR post commander requested reinforcements from two sniffer dog teams from the Portimao territorial group to help in the searches, considering the possibility that the girl could have left the apartment on foot and could be somewhere not very far from the OC resort.

7. At 01.00 after the group commander had been briefed about the situation, telephone contact was made with an official from the Queluz GNR school, with the aim of their releasing search and rescue dog teams, seeing as these are specially trained to find missing persons, which is not the case with the Portimao sniffer dogs, which are essentially patrol dogs.

As I understand it air scenting dogs would be not that useful in areas where there are people all around them.  They need tracking dogs for work close to the OC.  Some of the air scenting dogs had tracking ability so items were collected, a blanket and a towel and used.  The tracks were in and around the building and across to the car park across the road and possibly to the reception building as well.

[misty]

May I suggest you read the thread where the evidence appears repeatedly instead of accepting and repeating ferryman's misunderstanding?

Only the tracker dogs were given an item to sniff, not the other S and R dogs.
Some S and R dogs arrived from Lisbon at 8am. They sniffed nothing.
It was the two tracker dogs who sniffed the towel. They arrived at 11pm on 4th, with their handler Fernandes, the only one who handled two dogs.

I believe what Harrison said in his report.
Please provide a cite from the Portuguese dog handlers that their dogs were ground-scenting trackers as opposed to air-scenting search & rescue.