The Neglect question

[DevilsAdvocate]

Every child is different and ever different child is also different at different ages.  Hope that makes sense.

You cannot compare a 3-year-old with a 14-year-old unless the latter has learning difficulties.   

I think you can make a comparison, so long as the balance is the level of activity or inactivity. A 14 year old is more autonomous and safer to be left without supervision in potentially dangerous situations.  Most 14 year olds can cross roads safely; 4 year olds, may be not.

3 year olds or younger, looked in on regularly, should be fairly safe if you size up your children as sound sleepers and especially if you gauge that they are very tired when you put them to bed.

I'll ask the question once again so,
So are you suggesting that Madeleine had progressed beyond this stage ? And are you also suggesting that Sean & Amelie had also progressed beyond this stage ?

[ferryman]

Beyond what stage?

[icabodcrane]

It is a stage of childhood some children go through and not others.

Kate in her book describes Madeleine as (initially) a poor sleeper, awake and restive at night.

If that had still been true on that PdL holiday, what the McCanns did would, indeed, have been irresponsible.

It wasn't.

Madeleine spent just  five nights in  apartment 5A

One of those nights Mrs Fenn said she heard crying from the apartment for an hour and a quarter

In addition,  the McCanns said  Madeleine woke and came into their bed on one night,  complaining that Amelie was crying and keeping her awake

On another occassion,  the McCanns said Madeleine asked them where they were the night before when she and Sean had been crying

That's an awful lot of waking up and crying going  for a five night period ...  wouldn't you agree ?    (  it might even be described as  children who were poor sleepers, awake and restive at night  perhaps  ?  )

[ferryman]

It is a stage of childhood some children go through and not others.

Kate in her book describes Madeleine as (initially) a poor sleeper, awake and restive at night.

If that had still been true on that PdL holiday, what the McCanns did would, indeed, have been irresponsible.

It wasn't.

Madeleine spent just  five nights in  apartment 5A

One of those nights Mrs Fenn said she heard crying from the apartment for an hour and a quarter

In addition,  the McCanns said  Madeleine woke and came into their bed on one night,  complaining that Amelie was crying and keeping her awake

On another occassion,  the McCanns said Madeleine asked them where they were the night before when she and Sean had been crying

That's an awful lot of waking up and crying going  for a five night period ...  wouldn't you agree ?    (  it might even be described as  children who were poor sleepers, awake and restive at night  perhaps  ?  )

Mrs Fenn is actually on record as denying saying anything of the kind.

As to the report of Madeleine, I'm not quite sure what to make of that.

[Redblossom]

.......moderated.........  Mrs Fenn is on record as saying she has never spoken to any journalists, not that she never spoke to the police.

She gave a statement to the PJ.

Why dont you PROVE she never said she heard a child crying from the flat below hers? Talk about twisting the truth, shocking, I had logged off and looked back for a few seconds and saw your ridiculous post.!!!

You should be ashamed of yourself at the very least  for that as well as suggesting the safety of a 2 yr old is the same as the safety of a 14 yr old. pathetic. Sleep on that!

[ferryman]

A year before the files were released Mrs Fenn went on record and said she didn't even know (sic) 'that' family was living in apartment 5a.

13 September 2007 Mrs Fenn was reported as saying this:

Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.
But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481485/Madeleines-mother-quizzed-Portuguese-police.html#ixzz2QlS1uK50
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[Redblossom]

Sorry Ferryman, you will have to do miles better than quoting a rag article, whose journalists cant even spell, let alone print any truth I would stick to Mrs Fenns polixe  statements and her denial on VIDEO that she spoke to any JOURNALISTS, its on youtube look it up, she says its rubbish that she talked to any JOURNALISTS lol, not POLICE, you onow stick to FACTS????? nite now, sleep tight xx
 

[icabodcrane]

Few things give me more pleasure than   .......moderated ....

You're credibility as a forum member open to polite and genuine debate just crashed

 

...  what a pity

[John]

Could it be that technically Mrs Fenn did speak to journalists if only to deny that she had previously spoken with them or given any interview?  Everyone knows how the press can twist things to get the desired scoop.

The bottom line should probably be that she spoke to the Press but didn't give them any interview.

[icabodcrane]

Could it be that technically Mrs Fenn did speak to journalists if only to deny that she had previously spoken with them or given any interview?  Everyone knows how the press can twist things to get the desired scoop.

The bottom line should probably be that she spoke to the Press but didn't give them any interview.

I think you are probably spot on

She was an old lady  (  now passed )  and may have been horribly worn down by the constant attention of the press

 

[stephen25000]

Gilet sort your quotes out

ferryman, 14, so totally different, to leaving two two year olds and a three year old isn't it. Chalk and cheese so irrelevant.

Not totally different at all.  Children, all very tired (Kate makes that point) all tucked up in bed sound asleep and being checked on regularly.

Children active and unsupervised at that age, maybe different.

The parallel holds ...

Rubbish.

They were infrequent visits, and for the rest of the time they were by themselves, UNPROTECTED.

Same old story you've always peddled honestbroker.

[Chinagirl]

The main point of Ferryman's compartive comment has been missed.  The real comparison is between his father's reaction to a possibly dangerous situation, and the McCann parents' assessment that their child care arrangenments were adequate.

FM's father knew his son's capabilities; the McCanns knew their children's sleeping habits.

[stephen25000]

The main point of Ferryman's compartive comment has been missed.  The real comparison is between his father's reaction to a possibly dangerous situation, and the McCann parents' assessment that their child care arrangenments were adequate.

FM's father knew his son's capabilities; the McCanns knew their children's sleeping habits.

I completely disagree Chinagirl.

Young children don't sleep to a fixed regular pattern, and you should never assume that, unless of course they had been given something to make them sleep.

Leaving them in the situation they did in a locked/unlocked apartment, with irregular checks should never happened. It wasn't just stupid, it was and is irreconcilable with any logic.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Beyond what stage?

Are you being deliberately disruptive Ferryman or ie it that you realise the absurdity of the comparisons you made ?

[stephen25000]

Some children DO sleep to a regular sleeping pattern.  When I put my young children to bed at 7.30pm there was a 99% likelihood that they would not wake up again until at least the early hours of the morning (1-2am)  99% of the time they never physically left their beds again until the morning. Neither of my kids has ever once got up at night because of a bad dream (and they are both in double figures now).  The ONLY time they ever get up in the night is if they are ill, which in itself is a rare occurrence.  I realise that not all kids are like this, but mine are, and I would know that when I put them to bed as young kids, and once they were asleep, the likelihood of them getting up again was very slim.

Martha.

A few simple questions.

Would you have left your children when they were less than 4 years old in what the Mccanns claim was a locked/unlocked apartment, or for that matter any accommodation, without someone being there, e.g. a babysitter ?

Do you seriously believe the Mccanns claims that is was 'like sitting in the back garden', when they were at a bar eating and drinking, and it was getting dark ?

Can you know for certain Madeleine didn't wake up, dazed, looking for her parents ?

Can you say for certain Madeleine didn't have an accident in the flat ?

Do you think honestbroker's/ferryman's comparison is of merit ?