Author Topic: The Neglect question  (Read 65043 times)

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debunker

  • Guest
Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2013, 09:33:45 AM »
The answer is simple.

What the McCanns did was legal in Portugal and would have been legal in the UK.

It may not concur with your moral stance (nor mine) but at least I have the grace to concede that it is none of my effing business.

C.Edwards

  • Guest
Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2013, 09:37:46 AM »
I am shaken by the level of support their "childcare" (ha!) arrangements are getting... but I'm not really surprised as I've seen this over a number of years now.  In McCann-supporter world "if you ain't with us, then you're against us" and they become "one of them" if they disagree with the party line so they're unable (in general terms) to voice a dissenting opinion if they want to stay in the safety of the herd.

The *really* scary thing is that I think some of them genuinely believe it's perfectly ok to do what the McCanns did. That's like saying "my kid's a fast runner, I think it's perfectly safe to let him run across the dual carriageway to play in the park because I've assessed it's safe to do so."  Well no, it's not.  If you assess that a situation like this is safe then you're wrong. There is no debate here, it's not like deciding when your child is old enough to stay up past 7pm or something, this is genuinely a possible life-or-death situation.

Were the McCanns aware of the possible risks?  Were the kids regular heavy sleepers? Let's see...

Gerry McCann interview, Sky News, 1st May 2008 with Dermot Murnaghan:
Quote
Gerry McCann: Anybody with young children will understand that children cry; they wake up at night.

Gerry McCann's statement: 3.20pm, 10 May 2007
Quote
He cannot say exactly, but he thinks that on Monday or Tuesday Madeleine had slept for some time in his bedroom, with Kate, as she [Kate] had told him that one or both of the twins had cried, making much noise.

Kate McCann's statement: 3.00pm, 06 September 2007
Quote
Regarding the fact that Madeleine on the next morning, Thursday, during breakfast said to both of them that she had been crying and that nobody had come to her room, she presumes that this crying must have been before she and Gerry returned to the apartment.


Excerpt from Rachael Oldfield's Rogatory interview with Leicestershire police on 09 April 2008

Quote
Rachael Oldfield: "... and, I mean, I know, that on Thursday night when we sat down at the table, Kate said that Madeleine and Sean had, you know, said they'd been crying on the Wednesday night and asking where, errm... they'd said they'd been crying and... and some, you know, this is sort of with hindsight but I... you know, I was trying to think whether I'd heard anything but..."

"Kate said that, errm... Madeleine and Sean had cried... said they'd been crying, errm... and, you know, wondered where she was, or wondered where, you know, Mummy and Daddy were

Excerpt from Fiona Payne's Rogatory interview with Leicestershire police on 10 April 2008
Quote
she (Kate) was saying: 'Is it better that, if Madeleine wakes up, she can get out and find us or...,' errm... 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked, if she woke up,' because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry... Gerry had sort of said: 'Oh, it will be fine,' you know. But she was obviously... because it wasn't something she was quite easy with, that's the way it came across, you know, but... but Gerry said, you know: 'It'll be fine. It'll be fine'. Because I don't imagine she would have said anything, otherwise, if it hadn't been on her mind. And the fact was she... she... you know, commented on it being really strange that... that Madeleine had said this, about waking up and them not being there, and she'd mentioned that in the context of that conversation."

And finally, Russell O'Brien's Rogatory:

Quote
Around 21h25, taking advantage of a pause in the service of the first plate, the deponent left the restaurant with Matthew Oldfield to check on the children. He arrived at his apartment and immediately heard his daughter Evie crying and stayed in the apartment. He believes that Matthew Oldfield went to his apartment, and is not aware if he was going to also check on the McCann children and went to the deponent's apartment and asked him if he needed help.
- Matthew Oldfield returned to the restaurant, having told Jane Tanner that the deponent stayed behind with Evie O'Brien because she was crying.
- The truth is that after the crying, the deponent had to change all the sheets and his daughter's clothing as she had vomited.

It's obvious the McCanns knew that their children woke up and cried - and wandered.  They refer to Madeleine coming through to their room - Kate even refers to the possibility of Madeleine waking up and coming to find them Isn't that hugely at odds with "knowing" that Madeleine didn't "wake and wander" anyway?  Then there is evidence that she discussed her fears with her friends.  Then there is the incident of Russ O'Brien finding Evie crying, having been sick.  EVERY one of these idiots deserved to have a visit from social services to explain to them in clear and concise terms just how irresponsible they were and maybe that happened, who knows.  The point is that Evie could have choked on her own vomit, Madeleine could indeed have "woken and wandered" as Kate fretted about it and any one of a number of things could have gone wrong in those apartments to any of those poor children.

And yet having these fears, knowing the risks... the McCanns STILL left Madeleine and the twins alone on the Thursday night.  And you supporters think this is ok as "how were they to know...?" or that is was fine as they'd made their own risk assessment.

What about those who speed in their cars and cause accidents, killing people.  Their "risk assessment" was that it was fine to speed. How were they to know that child would run out around that corner?  How were they to know that another car could be coming around that blind bend? 

Has there ever been independent verification of what Gerry CLAIMS he was told about it being "well within the bounds of reasonable parenting"?  I've not seen it if so.  Well maybe the government know something about it.  What do you say, McCann supporters?  Do you know better than the British government?  Do the McCanns?

From https://www.gov.uk/law-on-leaving-your-child-home-alone
Quote
The law on leaving your child home alone

The law doesn’t say an age when you can leave a child on their own, but it’s an offence to leave a child alone if it places them at risk.

Use your judgement on how mature your child is before you decide to leave them alone.

The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) says:

  • children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time
  • children under 16 shouldn’t be left alone overnight
  • babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone
The law says that parents can be prosecuted if they leave a child unsupervised ‘in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health’.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2013, 09:41:35 AM »
It is perfectly legal to do what the McCanns did in Portugal and in England. Inadisable, not in accord with moral stance etc, but still legal.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2013, 09:42:36 AM »
There are curious anomalies about the statement of Mrs Fenn.

Stretched as the PJ were, it remains an odd and surely askance priority that all employees of the tapas restaurant (including many off-duty the night Madeleine vanished) were interviewed weeks or months before Mrs Fenn.

The other oddity is that the ostensible reason for Mrs Fenn's interview was given in the press before she was interviewed, nothing to do with Madeleine, rather a crime of which Mrs Fenn herself was a victim --  a break-in and attempted burglary of her own flat:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560785/New-suspect-in-Madeleine-McCann-case.html

That crime gets a mention in Mrs Fenn's statement to police about Madeleine -- just -- right at the end.

I will add in an edit

When questioned she [Mrs Fenn] said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.

Pamela Fenn

From the article:

Pamela Fenn, 70, who lives in the apartment above where the McCanns were staying, and her niece, who is flying to Portugal from the UK, will be among those spoken to.
Mrs Fenn has said that in the weeks leading up to Madeleine's disappearance she scared off an intruder in her apartment.
There was no apparent sign of a break-in and it is thought the man may have had a key to let himself into the flat. She will be making a formal statement today at police headquarters in the city of Portimao. There was also another burglary in the complex a few weeks before in which police also suspected the intruder had a key.
Mrs Fenn's niece was staying with her aunt in the week that the McCanns were on holiday. She saw a suspicious-looking man hanging around the McCanns' apartment about the time Madeleine vanished.
She has spoken to British police and told them that he matched the description of a suspect seen leaving the scene with a child wrapped up in a blanket on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.
The police are working on the assumption that the four-year-old is dead, but that "strong theory" is not believed to be related to the new lead.
Unconfirmed reports in a Portuguese tabloid claimed that British police are also awaiting instructions from the Policia Judiciaria relating to an English resident.
Kate and Gerry McCann have still not been briefed on any developments but hope to meet detectives this week.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 09:53:02 AM by ferryman »

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2013, 09:45:30 AM »
Some children DO sleep to a regular sleeping pattern.  When I put my young children to bed at 7.30pm there was a 99% likelihood that they would not wake up again until at least the early hours of the morning (1-2am)  99% of the time they never physically left their beds again until the morning. Neither of my kids has ever once got up at night because of a bad dream (and they are both in double figures now).  The ONLY time they ever get up in the night is if they are ill, which in itself is a rare occurrence.  I realise that not all kids are like this, but mine are, and I would know that when I put them to bed as young kids, and once they were asleep, the likelihood of them getting up again was very slim.


Martha.

A few simple questions.

Would you have left your children when they were less than 4 years old in what the Mccanns claim was a locked/unlocked apartment, or for that matter any accommodation, without someone being there, e.g. a babysitter ?

Do you seriously believe the Mccanns claims that is was 'like sitting in the back garden', when they were at a bar eating and drinking, and it was getting dark ?

Can you know for certain Madeleine didn't wake up, dazed, looking for her parents ?

Can you say for certain Madeleine didn't have an accident in the flat ?

Do you think honestbroker's/ferryman's comparison is of merit ?

Before I answer any of your questions I think it only fair that you acknowledge the points I made in my own post, ie: that some children DO have regular, predictable sleeping patterns.


I can only go on what I've seen for myself and been told by other parents Martha.

'Regular' is too vague a term, it can mean anything you want it to mean.

Likewise I don't know the sleeping patterns of your children when they were younger, so I accept you are saying that from your own experience.

However, none of know the patterns of the Mccann children, apart from the well known account of when Madeleine woke up, and KM admitted, she asked them were they were.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2013, 09:52:54 AM »
I am shaken by the level of support their "childcare" (ha!) arrangements are getting... but I'm not really surprised as I've seen this over a number of years now.  In McCann-supporter world "if you ain't with us, then you're against us" and they become "one of them" if they disagree with the party line so they're unable (in general terms) to voice a dissenting opinion if they want to stay in the safety of the herd.

The *really* scary thing is that I think some of them genuinely believe it's perfectly ok to do what the McCanns did. That's like saying "my kid's a fast runner, I think it's perfectly safe to let him run across the dual carriageway to play in the park because I've assessed it's safe to do so."  Well no, it's not.  If you assess that a situation like this is safe then you're wrong. There is no debate here, it's not like deciding when your child is old enough to stay up past 7pm or something, this is genuinely a possible life-or-death situation.

Were the McCanns aware of the possible risks?  Were the kids regular heavy sleepers? Let's see...

Gerry McCann interview, Sky News, 1st May 2008 with Dermot Murnaghan:
Quote
Gerry McCann: Anybody with young children will understand that children cry; they wake up at night.

Gerry McCann's statement: 3.20pm, 10 May 2007
Quote
He cannot say exactly, but he thinks that on Monday or Tuesday Madeleine had slept for some time in his bedroom, with Kate, as she [Kate] had told him that one or both of the twins had cried, making much noise.

Kate McCann's statement: 3.00pm, 06 September 2007
Quote
Regarding the fact that Madeleine on the next morning, Thursday, during breakfast said to both of them that she had been crying and that nobody had come to her room, she presumes that this crying must have been before she and Gerry returned to the apartment.


Excerpt from Rachael Oldfield's Rogatory interview with Leicestershire police on 09 April 2008

Quote
Rachael Oldfield: "... and, I mean, I know, that on Thursday night when we sat down at the table, Kate said that Madeleine and Sean had, you know, said they'd been crying on the Wednesday night and asking where, errm... they'd said they'd been crying and... and some, you know, this is sort of with hindsight but I... you know, I was trying to think whether I'd heard anything but..."

"Kate said that, errm... Madeleine and Sean had cried... said they'd been crying, errm... and, you know, wondered where she was, or wondered where, you know, Mummy and Daddy were

Excerpt from Fiona Payne's Rogatory interview with Leicestershire police on 10 April 2008
Quote
she (Kate) was saying: 'Is it better that, if Madeleine wakes up, she can get out and find us or...,' errm... 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked, if she woke up,' because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry... Gerry had sort of said: 'Oh, it will be fine,' you know. But she was obviously... because it wasn't something she was quite easy with, that's the way it came across, you know, but... but Gerry said, you know: 'It'll be fine. It'll be fine'. Because I don't imagine she would have said anything, otherwise, if it hadn't been on her mind. And the fact was she... she... you know, commented on it being really strange that... that Madeleine had said this, about waking up and them not being there, and she'd mentioned that in the context of that conversation."

And finally, Russell O'Brien's Rogatory:

Quote
Around 21h25, taking advantage of a pause in the service of the first plate, the deponent left the restaurant with Matthew Oldfield to check on the children. He arrived at his apartment and immediately heard his daughter Evie crying and stayed in the apartment. He believes that Matthew Oldfield went to his apartment, and is not aware if he was going to also check on the McCann children and went to the deponent's apartment and asked him if he needed help.
- Matthew Oldfield returned to the restaurant, having told Jane Tanner that the deponent stayed behind with Evie O'Brien because she was crying.
- The truth is that after the crying, the deponent had to change all the sheets and his daughter's clothing as she had vomited.

It's obvious the McCanns knew that their children woke up and cried - and wandered.  They refer to Madeleine coming through to their room - Kate even refers to the possibility of Madeleine waking up and coming to find them Isn't that hugely at odds with "knowing" that Madeleine didn't "wake and wander" anyway?  Then there is evidence that she discussed her fears with her friends.  Then there is the incident of Russ O'Brien finding Evie crying, having been sick.  EVERY one of these idiots deserved to have a visit from social services to explain to them in clear and concise terms just how irresponsible they were and maybe that happened, who knows.  The point is that Evie could have choked on her own vomit, Madeleine could indeed have "woken and wandered" as Kate fretted about it and any one of a number of things could have gone wrong in those apartments to any of those poor children.

And yet having these fears, knowing the risks... the McCanns STILL left Madeleine and the twins alone on the Thursday night.  And you supporters think this is ok as "how were they to know...?" or that is was fine as they'd made their own risk assessment.

What about those who speed in their cars and cause accidents, killing people.  Their "risk assessment" was that it was fine to speed. How were they to know that child would run out around that corner?  How were they to know that another car could be coming around that blind bend? 

Has there ever been independent verification of what Gerry CLAIMS he was told about it being "well within the bounds of reasonable parenting"?  I've not seen it if so.  Well maybe the government know something about it.  What do you say, McCann supporters?  Do you know better than the British government?  Do the McCanns?

From https://www.gov.uk/law-on-leaving-your-child-home-alone
Quote
The law on leaving your child home alone

The law doesn’t say an age when you can leave a child on their own, but it’s an offence to leave a child alone if it places them at risk.

Use your judgement on how mature your child is before you decide to leave them alone.

The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) says:

  • children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time
  • children under 16 shouldn’t be left alone overnight
  • babies, toddlers and very young children should never be left alone
The law says that parents can be prosecuted if they leave a child unsupervised ‘in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health’.


Thanks for posting that C.Edwards.

That is a pertinent reminder of what some people choose to forget.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2013, 09:54:24 AM »
If it was neglect, why were they not charged. No indications of a crime were found.

Offline Eleanor

Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2013, 09:54:47 AM »
I did exactly the same thing as The McCanns did under similar circumstances and not once did they get out of bed or even wake up, and I knew that the likelihood of them doing so was pretty nearly nil, as was proven.  I spent many, many nights at home with them, and they never woke up then either.  Some children don't.
If I was going to be some distance away and not checking on them regularly then I got a baby sitter.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2013, 09:55:53 AM »
Remember Debunker´s challenge:

No-one ever prosecuted successfully in the UK for what the McCanns did.

In domestic circumstances, regular checks, nor previous

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2013, 10:08:12 AM »
If it was neglect, why were they not charged. No indications of a crime were found.


So again.

If there was 'no crime'.

where is Madeleine ?

Offline Eleanor

Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2013, 10:14:10 AM »

It was The Abductor who committed The Crime.  I would have thought that much was obvious, but apparently not.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2013, 10:22:22 AM »
Remember Debunker´s challenge:

No-one ever prosecuted successfully in the UK for what the McCanns did.

In domestic circumstances, regular checks, nor previous


Now do you know 100% ,that nobody has been prosecuted in the UK in similar circumstances ?

Also, bearing in mind that not all cases of neglect go to court in the UK, but are often done behind 'closed doors' by social services.

https://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/resourcesforprofessionals/scrs/serious_case_reviews_2012_wda88142.html

debunker

  • Guest
Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2013, 11:31:12 AM »
If it was neglect, why were they not charged. No indications of a crime were found.


So again.

If there was 'no crime'.

where is Madeleine ?

Missing.

Abducted, killed, woke and wandered.

But no indications of a crime, therefore no guilty parties.

debunker

  • Guest
Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2013, 11:34:15 AM »
Remember Debunker´s challenge:
No-one ever prosecuted successfully in the UK for what the McCanns did.
In domestic circumstances, regular checks, nor previous
Now do you know 100% ,that nobody has been prosecuted in the UK in similar circumstances ?
Also, bearing in mind that not all cases of neglect go to court in the UK, but are often done behind 'closed doors' by social services.
https://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/resourcesforprofessionals/scrs/serious_case_reviews_2012_wda88142.html

Prosdecuted means in court for a criminal action.

People may have been placed on a register but that is not a conviction.

In six years no-one has produced evidence of a case comparable to the McCanns where prosecution resulted.

No prosecution suggests no crime.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: The Neglect question
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2013, 12:48:14 PM »
Remember Debunker´s challenge:

No-one ever prosecuted successfully in the UK for what the McCanns did.

In domestic circumstances, regular checks, nor previous


Well you wanted a case in the UK.

Here's one where the parents slept and their door was unlocked.

Mmm.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boy-four-found-wandering-on-busy-273332