The Neglect question

[Puffin]

Remember Debunker´s challenge:

No-one ever prosecuted successfully in the UK for what the McCanns did.

In domestic circumstances, regular checks, nor previous

Well you wanted a case in the UK.

Here's one where the parents slept and their door was unlocked.

Mmm.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boy-four-found-wandering-on-busy-273332

I think  he meant a comparable case, not one as is reported in your link:

Officers found the property littered with aerosol cans, used by the solvent sniffing dad. And also, bizarrely, a bag of raw meat was discovered in one of the children's beds.

 
I don't recall the McCanns being accused of solvent sniffing, these parents were more than likely out cold, not just asleep.

[stephen25000]

Remember Debunker´s challenge:

No-one ever prosecuted successfully in the UK for what the McCanns did.

In domestic circumstances, regular checks, nor previous

Well you wanted a case in the UK.

Here's one where the parents slept and their door was unlocked.

Mmm.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boy-four-found-wandering-on-busy-273332

I think  he meant a comparable case, not one as is reported in your link:

Officers found the property littered with aerosol cans, used by the solvent sniffing dad. And also, bizarrely, a bag of raw meat was discovered in one of the children's beds.

 
I don't recall the McCanns being accused of solvent sniffing, these parents were more than likely out cold, not just asleep.

For further reference.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boy-four-found-wandering-on-busy-273332

The front door was unlocked.

Now that sounds a wee bit familiar.


Now pray tell Puffin, was the apartment locked or unlocked ? >@@(*&)

[ferryman]

Remember Debunker´s challenge:

No-one ever prosecuted successfully in the UK for what the McCanns did.

In domestic circumstances, regular checks, nor previous

Well you wanted a case in the UK.

Here's one where the parents slept and their door was unlocked.

Mmm.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boy-four-found-wandering-on-busy-273332

I think  he meant a comparable case, not one as is reported in your link:

Officers found the property littered with aerosol cans, used by the solvent sniffing dad. And also, bizarrely, a bag of raw meat was discovered in one of the children's beds.

 
I don't recall the McCanns being accused of solvent sniffing, these parents were more than likely out cold, not just asleep.

For further reference.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boy-four-found-wandering-on-busy-273332

The front door was unlocked.

Now that sounds a wee bit familiar.


Now pray tell Puffin, was the apartment locked or unlocked ? >@@(*&)

This business over front and back door is a straight confusion over prepositions: in an apartment what can be considered front or back?

An irrelevance best dismissed ...

[John]

In one of the videos I posted earlier this morning Kate's mother airs her disquiet at the fact that they had left the children alone at all.  I must say, I find it strange too considering there was a FREE babysitting service.

I will add that there was nothing illegal in what the parents did by leaving them unattended for short periods at a time but certainly raises some questions as to being responsible parents.

Another point you may want to discuss is, why, if there had been a history of break-ins at the Club weren't the parents warned?  I personally believe Mark Warner Holidays are culpable in what occurred by failing to provide proper security at the resort given what they already knew.

I ask the question again, has the Company received any sanctions or penalties because of what happened?

[C.Edwards]

As I think Icabod mentioned earlier.  What would have happened had there been a fire and Madeleine died in the fire?  Would the McCanns have been prosecuted for anything?

The intent hasn't changed. They didn't leave her there KNOWING there would be a fire.

[John]

As I think Icabod mentioned earlier.  What would have happened had there been a fire and Madeleine died in the fire?  Would the McCanns have been prosecuted for anything?

The intent hasn't changed. They didn't leave her there KNOWING there would be a fire.

Does 'irresponsible' cover it?

[Puffin]

@stephen25000, the parents were junkies, I expect they passed out, and anyway have you never got back home after a party, crashed out like a light and then found out next day that you didn't lock the door?   The McCanns were not sniffing aerosols, they were not drunk, so I do not see the comparison, and as has been said in the post further up, when is a door a front door or a back door in an apartment?

[debunker]

Remember Debunker´s challenge:
No-one ever prosecuted successfully in the UK for what the McCanns did.
In domestic circumstances, regular checks, nor previous

Well you wanted a case in the UK.
Here's one where the parents slept and their door was unlocked.
Mmm.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boy-four-found-wandering-on-busy-273332

Where are the twenty minute checks? And there is illegal subsance misuse as a complicating factor.

I am paying by the minute here and tagging posting on the end of downloading academic stuff onto a thumb drive, so I did not post the full challenge which is found elsewhere earlier on this site.

It requires a successful prosecutin for a child being neglected for lack of attention in a domestic setting with regular checks and no previus or concurrent childcare or other criminal complications.

This case is more to do with long term neglect through drug use and fractured life style. Other woke and wandered have never been prosecuted.

[debunker]

As I think Icabod mentioned earlier.  What would have happened had there been a fire and Madeleine died in the fire?  Would the McCanns have been prosecuted for anything?

The intent hasn't changed. They didn't leave her there KNOWING there would be a fire.

Short answer- NO!

[C.Edwards]

As I think Icabod mentioned earlier.  What would have happened had there been a fire and Madeleine died in the fire?  Would the McCanns have been prosecuted for anything?

The intent hasn't changed. They didn't leave her there KNOWING there would be a fire.

Does 'irresponsible' cover it?

What? As an adjective for the parents' actions?  So would it be reasonable to call them "irresponsible" rather than "negligent" parents?  In the face of the evidence that they knew their children were prone to waking and crying/wandering I think it fits well, yes.

[C.Edwards]

@stephen25000, the parents were junkies, I expect they passed out, and anyway have you never got back home after a party, crashed out like a light and then found out next day that you didn't lock the door?   The McCanns were not sniffing aerosols, they were not drunk, so I do not see the comparison, and as has been said in the post further up, when is a door a front door or a back door in an apartment?

It's not difficult. Gerry's first statement shows a clear distinction:

In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left, and bumped into a person he had played tennis with and who had a child's push chair, he was also British, he had a short conversation with him, "returning after that to the restaurant." At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked and was located laterally to the building.

[debunker]

What they did was not criminal.

Anything else is personal moral judgement.

You may or may not agree with what they did. But essentially your opinion is just that- not a matter of fact in the real world, but just a reflection of your beliefs and character.

[C.Edwards]

You may not have seen my post on the other thread when I posted the video in which Gerry explains why he used the locked front door (north side) instead of the unlocked patio doors (south side) as that door would not have disturbed the sleeping children.

Seems the act of using the sliding patio door (being opposite the children's bedroom) was noisy.

Yup, I've heard that before John. If it's anything like my patio door it'd wake the kids up and no mistake.  I can entirely understand why Gerry would use the front door instead - and using a key as he mentions in his first statement.

It's clear that there's only really the matter of intent to separate "illegal" from "irresponsible" in this.  I haven't seen any of the McCann supporters venture an opinion on what would have happened had there been a fire. Or if Madeleine had fallen and knocked herself out - or worse - whilst the McCanns were out. There would have been no intent change, but there would have been an outcome change. I would have thought the McCanns would have been prosecuted for neglect by either the Portuguese or British authorities myself.

[Puffin]

@stephen25000, the parents were junkies, I expect they passed out, and anyway have you never got back home after a party, crashed out like a light and then found out next day that you didn't lock the door?   The McCanns were not sniffing aerosols, they were not drunk, so I do not see the comparison, and as has been said in the post further up, when is a door a front door or a back door in an apartment?

It's not difficult. Gerry's first statement shows a clear distinction:

In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left, and bumped into a person he had played tennis with and who had a child's push chair, he was also British, he had a short conversation with him, "returning after that to the restaurant." At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked and was located laterally to the building.

I thought laterally meant to the side not the back.

[Jean-Pierre]

Remember Debunker´s challenge:

No-one ever prosecuted successfully in the UK for what the McCanns did.

In domestic circumstances, regular checks, nor previous

Well you wanted a case in the UK.

Here's one where the parents slept and their door was unlocked.

Mmm.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boy-four-found-wandering-on-busy-273332

Stephen - you know perfectly well that you are being disingenuous here.  The reason for prosecution did not stem from the children leaving the house, or the door being left unlocked.  The charge of neglect was in relation to the general level of care of the children. Which is quite adequately described in the newspaper article.