Anne's theory that Madeleine was murdered before being removed.

[AnneGuedes]

The best time for the intruder to get in was obviously right after the departure of the McCanns, 20:30. Once inside through the patio door, trying to smother Madeleine about to scream, he suffocated her accidentally. He remained there, likely horrified and not knowing what to do. The state of the bed indicates there was no fight.
What about Mr McCann ? He didn't say the truth. He checked like Matt did later, he just listened, he said he never looked inside normally. Didn't he admit the predator was with him in the flat ?
What about Jane T ? She saw the carrier not at 9:20, but at 9:45 when she went to relieve Russell. She thought he was Geraldalike and feared the police would go on a false track if by chance someone else had seen him. So she changed the time and gave Mr McCann an alibi.
The man who killed Madeleine left the flat with the little body on his arms and was seen by the Smith family 10 minutes later.
Eddie was right.

[John]

No intruder is going to take a risk of discovery over a corpse Anne and he certainly isn't going to walk around a busy tourist town at night with her in his arms. I am surprised you even suggested such a scenario.

As for evidence against the McCanns I fear nobody has come up with any so this can now be consigned to the myth bin.

[AnneGuedes]

No intruder is going to take a risk of discovery over a corpse Anne and he certainly isn't going to walk around a busy tourist town at night with her in his arms. I am surprised you even suggested such a scenario.

As for evidence against the McCanns I fear nobody has come up with any so this can now be consigned to the myth bin.

I don't agree, John, intruders now are informed about DNA and certainly wouldn't take the risk to be discovered through residues found on a corpse.
And PDL wasn't busy at all (see 10:00 witness).
And finally this predator, at least, didn't walk around, unlike the Jane T/Smith carrier.

[John]

It is a recognised fact that complete strangers don't just walk into holiday apartment blocks, murder a child and make off with the body.  There is simply no logic to it.

[Sandy]

It is a recognised fact that complete strangers don't just walk into holiday apartment blocks, murder a child and make off with the body.  There is simply no logic to it.

it is usually family that do that. 

[AnneGuedes]

It is a recognised fact that complete strangers don't just walk into holiday apartment blocks, murder a child and make off with the body.  There is simply no logic to it.

it is usually family that do that. 

If one deeply feels the McCanns weren't involved whatsoever, if one finds not plausible an abductor 1) walking around and 2) carrying a child as one carries badly hurt or dead kids, if one knows that according to probability laws late exceptional Eddie smelt death in the flat , then you'll admit a perfect stranger, not an abductor, took advantage of a door left open hoping to find some valuable things, was surprised by a little girl about to scream, killed her by accident and succeeded in trying to save his neck.
I'm not saying this is, imo, what happened.

[Carana]

It is a recognised fact that complete strangers don't just walk into holiday apartment blocks, murder a child and make off with the body.  There is simply no logic to it.

it is usually family that do that. 

If one deeply feels the McCanns weren't involved whatsoever, if one finds not plausible an abductor 1) walking around and 2) carrying a child as one carries badly hurt or dead kids, if one knows that according to probability laws late exceptional Eddie smelt death in the flat , then you'll admit a perfect stranger, not an abductor, took advantage of a door left open hoping to find some valuable things, was surprised by a little girl about to scream, killed her by accident and succeeded in trying to save his neck.
I'm not saying this is, imo, what happened.

Well, I had thought that this could have been a possibility.

However, on checking available literature, I can't find anything to suggest that a cadaver dog would detect the lingering airborne scent 3 months after the fact of someone who would have been taken out within a minute or so after supposedly dying. Add to that the fact that 4 different sets of people had lived in it after the disappearance, and whoever else may have visited it.

So far, my conclusion is that if someone did indeed kill her in that flat and immediately removed her, that still wouldn't account for Eddie's alert.

[AnneGuedes]

However, on checking available literature, I can't find anything to suggest that a cadaver dog would detect the lingering airborne scent 3 months after the fact of someone who would have been taken out within a minute or so after supposedly dying. Add to that the fact that 4 different sets of people had lived in it after the disappearance, and whoever else may have visited it.

So far, my conclusion is that if someone did indeed kill her in that flat and immediately removed her, that still wouldn't account for Eddie's alert.

Hi Carana ! Yes, this scenario is impossible if Madeleine was removed a few minutes after dying. But can you imagine an intruder killing in a panic ? Would he run away immediately or would he remain for a while in a state of shock ?

[Carana]

However, on checking available literature, I can't find anything to suggest that a cadaver dog would detect the lingering airborne scent 3 months after the fact of someone who would have been taken out within a minute or so after supposedly dying. Add to that the fact that 4 different sets of people had lived in it after the disappearance, and whoever else may have visited it.

So far, my conclusion is that if someone did indeed kill her in that flat and immediately removed her, that still wouldn't account for Eddie's alert.

Hi Carana ! Yes, this scenario is impossible if Madeleine was removed a few minutes after dying. But can you imagine an intruder killing in a panic ? Would he run away immediately or would he remain for a while in a state of shock ?

No idea, Anne. I'm not a burglar, neither have I ever harmed anyone.

Even a few minutes of shock wouldn't explain Eddie's alert so long after.

He/she could have knocked her out, taken her out and subsequently discovered that he was in a mess.

If she wasn't dead and he didn't know what to do, have all convents, sects, "alternative communities", etc., been thoroughly checked?

[AnneGuedes]

No idea, Anne. I'm not a burglar, neither have I ever harmed anyone.

Even a few minutes of shock wouldn't explain Eddie's alert so long after.

He/she could have knocked her out, taken her out and subsequently discovered that he was in a mess.

If she wasn't dead and he didn't know what to do, have all convents, sects, "alternative communities", etc., been thoroughly checked?

I'm not a burglar too and luckily didn't kill accidentally someone. But I'm a human being..
It's not impossible to think an intruder remained quite a time in the flat. We know that Mr Oldfield lied (must have listened to the window) and if Mr McCann went into the flat, he limited his visit to the bathroom as usual.
Death comes in a couple of minutes when air pipes are obstructed, especially the jugular arteries.

[Mr Moderator]

Please note posters:

This thread split from the main thread.

[Angelo222]

It is a recognised fact that complete strangers don't just walk into holiday apartment blocks, murder a child and make off with the body.  There is simply no logic to it.

it is usually family that do that. 

If one deeply feels the McCanns weren't involved whatsoever, if one finds not plausible an abductor 1) walking around and 2) carrying a child as one carries badly hurt or dead kids, if one knows that according to probability laws late exceptional Eddie smelt death in the flat , then you'll admit a perfect stranger, not an abductor, took advantage of a door left open hoping to find some valuable things, was surprised by a little girl about to scream, killed her by accident and succeeded in trying to save his neck.
I'm not saying this is, imo, what happened.

This wasnt an opportunist crime anne.   These people (I believe there were at least two) had been watching and had planned the kidnap abduction.  We dont know why or if it was a kidnap or if they were abducting for their own gratification or for financial gain.  Usually when someone acts alone it is for self gratification but when there are multiple offenders involved it is a gang out to make some dosh.

A dead child is of no use to anyone and carrying one around the vtown would have been idiotic and a non starter.

[Benice]

No idea, Anne. I'm not a burglar, neither have I ever harmed anyone.

Even a few minutes of shock wouldn't explain Eddie's alert so long after.

He/she could have knocked her out, taken her out and subsequently discovered that he was in a mess.

If she wasn't dead and he didn't know what to do, have all convents, sects, "alternative communities", etc., been thoroughly checked?

I'm not a burglar too and luckily didn't kill accidentally someone. But I'm a human being..
It's not impossible to think an intruder remained quite a time in the flat. We know that Mr Oldfield lied (must have listened to the window) and if Mr McCann went into the flat, he limited his visit to the bathroom as usual.
Death comes in a couple of minutes when air pipes are obstructed, especially the jugular arteries.

Why do you say Matt Oldfield lied? I've seen no evidence of that.

[Angelo222]

Matthew had a guilty conscience about what happened.  Nobody knows for sure if he went right up to the shutters or just listened momentarily as he passed.  Maybe he missed the shutters being open in the gloom??

[AnneGuedes]

No idea, Anne. I'm not a burglar, neither have I ever harmed anyone.

Even a few minutes of shock wouldn't explain Eddie's alert so long after.

He/she could have knocked her out, taken her out and subsequently discovered that he was in a mess.

If she wasn't dead and he didn't know what to do, have all convents, sects, "alternative communities", etc., been thoroughly checked?

I'm not a burglar too and luckily didn't kill accidentally someone. But I'm a human being..
It's not impossible to think an intruder remained quite a time in the flat. We know that Mr Oldfield lied (must have listened to the window) and if Mr McCann went into the flat, he limited his visit to the bathroom as usual.
Death comes in a couple of minutes when air pipes are obstructed, especially the jugular arteries.

Why do you say Matt Oldfield lied? I've seen no evidence of that.

MO described the McCann childrens' bedroom as his was (2 windows), he said the curtains were green instead of lilac, could only see 1 twin, and not 2, according to the SP photos, should have wondered where was Madeleine since the bed under the window was undone, etc. Besides it was pointless to get inside and only listen. His check isn't on one of the timelines.