Matthew Oldfield said the shutters weren't down!!

[Benice]

Statements are facts, in this case with a risk of lost in translation. Statements don't describe in themselves a certain reality, but the perception their authors have, or pretend to give, of this reality.
For example it is a fact Mr McCann stated he entered through the main door with his key.
It's another fact Mr McCann stated one week later he entered through the french window.
What is the reality ?
In this case I think the second fact is the reality, because I can think of a motive for the first false reality.

As previously mentioned elsewhere, I think the scope for misunderstandngs, mistranslations, mistakes  etc during that very first interview was massive.  The police officer was new to the case and probably unfamiliar with the layout of the apartment at that point.   Gerry would have been exhausted and his whole world was falling apart around him as he sat there - still descending into every parents worst nightmare.

It's obvious that there was much confusion about the doors/keys etc on the part of many during that initial time.  This 'previous confusion' was mentioned by the police officer who took Jane Tanner's rogatory statement.

Mr McCann was the only one to make a confusion about the door he had used and the door his wife had used. Mrs McCann made no confusion.
In another context (not a horror context I would say), I probably wouldn't pay attention to a man having a challenge reaction (how shutters could be lifted from the outside when he thought it wasn't possible).
Time was above panic (doctors normally are trained not to) in this disappearance context : the life of a little girl which could depend on seconds.

But Anne, how do you know it was Gerry who became confused about the door- it might have been the translater or the police officer interviewing him - and as there is no verbatim record of the interview available we cannot be sure of how it happened.

I'm always puzzled why people think that because the McCanns were doctors they should somehow have behaved differently to parents of other professions on discovering that their daughter had been abducted.

To me - this is like saying if a Firefighter was called out -  and found that the blaze was at his own home and one of his children had died in it  - he should not be as affected as other people, because he was used to attending such tragedies. 

Sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever to me.

[DCI]

So if they were down when Gerry did his check at 9.10pm and up when Matthew did his at 9.25pm, what does that tell you about the time of the abduction?

Answers on a postcard!

It tells me he said different things in all three interviews
 


and NOT only on this issue, ie unreliable witness imho

He saw two windows, so which one had the shutters not down ?
He noticed the curtains, but said they were green, like Jane/Russells' ones.
He saw two twins when only one was in a transparent cot.
He saw a bed, undone, but had no curiosity to find out whose bed it was.
Etc.

Both cots are transparent Anne, you can see through the side of the brown one, see photo 5

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_PHOTO_REPORT.htm

[John]

The events which occurred and are related by Gerry, Matthew and Jane go a very long way to explaining the series of events that happened on the night Madeleine was abducted.  It is not unreasonable therefore to conclude that the abductor was actually in the apartment when Gerry did his unscheduled cursory check making his escape some minutes later while Gerry and Jez chatted down the road.  When Gerry did the check at 9.10pm the shutter was down, when Matthew did it at 9.25pm the shutter was up according to his rogatory statement.  Remembering too that Jane's sighting of a man carrying a female child was at 9.15pm.

[AnneGuedes]

So if they were down when Gerry did his check at 9.10pm and up when Matthew did his at 9.25pm, what does that tell you about the time of the abduction?

Answers on a postcard!

It tells me he said different things in all three interviews
 


and NOT only on this issue, ie unreliable witness imho

He saw two windows, so which one had the shutters not down ?
He noticed the curtains, but said they were green, like Jane/Russells' ones.
He saw two twins when only one was in a transparent cot.
He saw a bed, undone, but had no curiosity to find out whose bed it was.
Etc.

Both cots are transparent Anne, you can see through the side of the brown one, see photo 5

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_PHOTO_REPORT.htm

Not through the bottom of the brown one. Link does'nt work for the moment.

[icabodcrane]

The events which occurred and are related by Gerry, Matthew and Jane go a very long way to explaining the series of events that happened on the night Madeleine was abducted.  It is not unreasonable therefore to conclude that the abductor was actually in the apartment when Gerry did his unscheduled cursory check making his escape some minutes later while Gerry and Jez chatted down the road.  When Gerry did the check at 9.10pm the shutter was down, when Matthew did it at 9.25pm the shutter was up according to his rogatory statement.  Remembering too that Jane's sighting of a man carrying a female child was at 9.15pm.

If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor,  then he would almost certainly  have to be placed in the highly unlikely position of hiding in the apartment when Gerry made his check

We know he didn't climb in through the window because of forensic evidence

We know, too, that he didn't get in through the open patio doors within the few minutes between Gerry's check and Tanner's sighting,  because Gerry and Jez were standing outside the gate that lead to them 

So unless we venture into the duplicate key realm of fanasty,  we  have to believe Gerry's theory that the abductor was hiding behind the door ...  however ridiculous the suggestion is

[amaraltheofficeboy]

icabodcrane

We know he didn't climb in through the window because of forensic evidence

We know, too, that he didn't get in through the open patio doors within the few minutes between Gerry's check and Tanner's sighting,  because Gerry and Jez were standing outside the gate that lead to them 

you know a lot

[AnneGuedes]

Statements are facts, in this case with a risk of lost in translation. Statements don't describe in themselves a certain reality, but the perception their authors have, or pretend to give, of this reality.
For example it is a fact Mr McCann stated he entered through the main door with his key.
It's another fact Mr McCann stated one week later he entered through the french window.
What is the reality ?
In this case I think the second fact is the reality, because I can think of a motive for the first false reality.

As previously mentioned elsewhere, I think the scope for misunderstandngs, mistranslations, mistakes  etc during that very first interview was massive.  The police officer was new to the case and probably unfamiliar with the layout of the apartment at that point.   Gerry would have been exhausted and his whole world was falling apart around him as he sat there - still descending into every parents worst nightmare.

It's obvious that there was much confusion about the doors/keys etc on the part of many during that initial time.  This 'previous confusion' was mentioned by the police officer who took Jane Tanner's rogatory statement.

Mr McCann was the only one to make a confusion about the door he had used and the door his wife had used. Mrs McCann made no confusion.
In another context (not a horror context I would say), I probably wouldn't pay attention to a man having a challenge reaction (how shutters could be lifted from the outside when he thought it wasn't possible).
Time was above panic (doctors normally are trained not to) in this disappearance context : the life of a little girl which could depend on seconds.

But Anne, how do you know it was Gerry who became confused about the door- it might have been the translater or the police officer interviewing him - and as there is no verbatim record of the interview available we cannot be sure of how it happened.

I'm always puzzled why people think that because the McCanns were doctors they should somehow have behaved differently to parents of other professions on discovering that their daughter had been abducted.

To me - this is like saying if a Firefighter was called out -  and found that the blaze was at his own home and one of his children had died in it  - he should not be as affected as other people, because he was used to attending such tragedies. 

Sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Benice, Mr and Mrs McCann had the same translator, a sworn in translator, who at the end translates everything in English again in order to get the approbation or not of the interviewed. Besides only the main door could be locked with a key and Mr McCann mentions the key.
Doctors are trained to react in front of emergencies. It's part of their cursus. Mr or Mrs McCann, I don't remember, referred to this many years ago.
The instance of the firefighter doesn't make sense to me as well.

[John]

Remember it wasn't the first time an intruder got into an apartment at Ocean Club using a key.  Wouldn't it be interesting to know what else went missing from 5a over the years?

[AnneGuedes]

Remember it wasn't the first time an intruder got into an apartment at Ocean Club using a key.  Wouldn't it be interesting to know what else went missing from 5a over the years?

John, which intruder and with OC apartment do you mean, please ?

[Chinagirl]

Quote:

So unless we venture into the duplicate key realm of fanasty, Unquote

Hardly fantasy.  A very logical and highly likely theory/speculation.

[icabodcrane]

Quote:

So unless we venture into the duplicate key realm of fanasty, Unquote

Hardly fantasy.  A very logical and highly likely theory/speculation.

That's what I meant  ...  it is 'speculation'  (  there is no evidence at all to support it )

[AnneGuedes]

Quote:

So unless we venture into the duplicate key realm of fanasty, Unquote

Hardly fantasy.  A very logical and highly likely theory/speculation.

That's what I meant  ...  it is 'speculation'  (  there is no evidence at all to support it )

If the key duplicate is speculation, how shall we call the opening of the window ? One annihilates the other, one turns the other ludicrous.
Suddenly I realise, off topic sorry, that Chinagirl said the translations of the files were biased and gave an example. I asked the reference...

[Chinagirl]

AnneGuedes - Rather than take this thread further off-topic, I shall reply to you in the thread entitled "A question for AnneGuedes the translator."

[John]

Remember it wasn't the first time an intruder got into an apartment at Ocean Club using a key.  Wouldn't it be interesting to know what else went missing from 5a over the years?

John, which intruder and with OC apartment do you mean, please ?

The lady above the McCann's apartment for one.  Didn't she report an intruder getting in to her locked apartment?  There are also numerous other reports of strangers lurking around the premises.

Spare keys for all the apartments except the privately owned ones were kept in a safe in the resort garage.  All maintenance workers knew the combination of the safe and had access to these keys so it was by no means a difficult task to get hold of a key.

Remember this is not the sort of thing that Mark Warner would want to promote but it is fact...not speculation.  There would appear to have been a security problem at the resort which I have yet to see addressed in any threads.

[AnneGuedes]

Remember it wasn't the first time an intruder got into an apartment at Ocean Club using a key.  Wouldn't it be interesting to know what else went missing from 5a over the years?

John, which intruder and with OC apartment do you mean, please ?

The lady above the McCann's apartment for one.  Didn't she report an intruder getting in to her locked apartment?  There are also numerous other reports of strangers lurking around the premises.

Spare keys for all the apartments except the privately owned ones were kept in a safe in the resort garage. All maintenance workers knew the combination of the safe and had access to these keys so it was by no means a difficult task to get hold of a key.

Remember this is not the sort of thing that Mark Warner would want to promote but it is fact...not speculation.  There would appear to have been a security problem at the resort which I have yet to see addressed in any threads.

Not a difficult task supposing you were member of the staff. All were checked.
Mrs Fenn's intruder disappeared through the window... Could have got in the same way.
If it were plausible 3/5 minutes were enough for an abductor to get in (how would he know the way was free, since Mr McCann didn't shut any door), stun a little girl, seize her and be on time on FGM, then a reconstruction was required.