If the man Jane Tanner saw was the abductor, how long did he have ?

[Carana]

An abductor hiding in the apartment makes no sense in a number of ways   

Firstly, we are told, by the McCanns themselves, that they were being  'watched'  for a few days, and that the abductor had become aware of their checking regime

So why would this abductor watch the McCanns leave the apartment at 8.30pm,  then wait half an hour before going into the apartment at the exact time he knew a check was due  ?

Secondly,  even if the abductor was  stupid enough to put himself in the apartment when a check was due  (  or if he was, in fact, an opportunistic abductor who had not been watching the McCanns at all, and had no idea that a check was due  )  there is still the business of where to hide

The first he would have known would be Gerry sliding the patio door open and walking in.  At that point, Gerry was already looking straight ahead at the children's bedroom in front of him, with it's wider than usual open door


The abductor could not have moved from anywhere else in the room  to get himself behind the door without passing directly in Gerry's line of vision  (  he would have to have already been standing behind the door when Gerry came in ) 

As to hiding in the wardrobe,  even if it was accessible  ( the cots ),  and even if was relatively empty  ( which it would have to be )  he would still, without question,  make some noise doing it.  The apartment was still and quiet and Gerry would almost certainly have heard someone getting in the wardrobe

If you read up, I find it relatively unlikely that someone was hiding in that bedroom at the time.

I don't find it implausible that someone could have been in that apartment at that time.

An initial alerting sound would not have been the sliding door, but the gate at the entrance.

[ferryman]

I know Amaral doesn't seem to have a good track record in basic police work - but surely to goodness that he and the rest of the PJ would have least worked out after talking to all the witnesses in the area - Tapas , staff , other guests where their no one suspect was at the time of the discovery .

The argument that perhaps Gerry could have been 10 minutes away at 9.50 with a dead body in his arms ( to suit the Smith sighting ) but then back in place at around 10ish to play his " role "  I mean even the most dense witness might have worked out that a breathless Gerry rushing back from somewhere

Also can anyone really accept  that in that 5 minute window Gerry managed to dispose of a body that managed to evade a mass of searching by dozens of police , sniffer dogs , etc etc - come on

If there was collusion, Gerry must have been furious with Kate for raising the "alarm" before Gerry had even got down to the beach.

And where is the evidence that Kate and Gerry were ever, at any point, simultaneously absent from the restaurant between the point of their (joint) arrival and Kate's alert?

If non-existent (it is!), then that puts paid to all themccannsdunit theories.

Well, OK, not quite all. 

There are some so far-fetched even Amaral doesn't entertain them.

But let's not go there ...
 

[Mrs. B]

I don't understand your point, Mrs. B. What are you suggesting ? That if by misfortune Madeleine had fallen from the balcony and broken his crown, somebody in the surrounding flats, would have seen her ?

Crown? You mean neck or that she'd fatally injured her head? You don't fall from a height like that without sustaining multiple injuries, just the act of a body hitting a hard surface would be enough to crack the skull & break the skin of that individual, i.e. blood would have been found, likely in abundance. If skull was cracked open, blood & brain matter would have seeped out. Where's the evidence?

ETA What would you do if you found your daughter dead in a flowerbed? Scream your head off until someone came to help you or calmly lift her up & dump her dead body behind the sofa? Talk about absurdities....

[AnneGuedes]

No, you said that the ONLY way someone could spot a child in a flowerbed was if they walked past the apartment. I stated that there are apartments surrounding 5A & higher up where people have full view into the "garden" of 5A. Though the area wasn't well lit (that's changed now btw) it was by no means in absolute darkness, you'd still be able to make out a child's body in a flowerbed from apts. facing or on the side of 5A.

I don't agree with this, according to what I saw. The vegetation turned visibility difficult, moreover at night (before the moon rising) and there was no light in the patio. Even Mrs Fenn would have likely thought pyjamas had fallen on the flower bed.
Anyhow, do you reckon now that a reconstruction would have been useful ?

[Eleanor]

I posted this a couple of weeks ago, but thread was de railed.

We have all said it all before.  It's bloody obvious.

[Benice]

Behind the bedroom door or in the wardrobe.  Gerry wasn't exactly looking for anyone.

Or in the kitchen? - I believe the door to the kitchen was opposite Madeleine's bedroom door.
I'm not absolutely sure but I think Diane Webster suggested the kitchen.

IMO it would be depend a lot on whether two people were involved - with one warning the other when he saw Gerry leave the table and head back towards the apartment.

[ferryman]

I don't agree with this, according to what I saw. The vegetation turned visibility difficult, moreover at night (before the moon rising) and there was no light in the patio. Even Mrs Fenn would have likely thought pyjamas had fallen on the flower bed.
Anyhow, do you reckon now that a reconstruction would have been useful ?

Did someone say that Keela reacted in the flowerbed?

[Mrs. B]

I don't agree with this, according to what I saw. The vegetation turned visibility difficult, moreover at night (before the moon rising) and there was no light in the patio. Even Mrs Fenn would have likely thought pyjamas had fallen on the flower bed.
Anyhow, do you reckon now that a reconstruction would have been useful ?

I always said a reconstruction would have been useful, in May 2007 with the majority of potential witnesses still available, it would have been. I sincerely doubt the value of it over a year later.

[Eleanor]

Did someone say that Keela reacted in the flowerbed?

Sort of, but not a lot.  Martin Grime said that he needed to come back in daylight.  But we never heard about the result of that.  So presumably nothing was found.

[icabodcrane]

If you read up, I find it relatively unlikely that someone was hiding in that bedroom at the time.

I don't find it implausible that someone could have been in that apartment at that time.

An initial alerting sound would not have been the sliding door, but the gate at the entrance.

I disagree that the abductor, being inside the apartment with the patio doors closed would have heard the gate outside being opened

I find the whole proposition that the abductor was in the apartment with  Gerry to be extremely implausible

The problem is,  if we are to accept the abductor theory, then we must accept that the abductor was already in the apartment when Gerry made his check 

I just don't see how it's possible though   

[ferryman]

Sort of, but not a lot.  Martin Grime said that he needed to come back in daylight.  But we never heard about the result of that.  So presumably nothing was found.

I do know that cuttings from the flowerbed were sent to the FSS on the advice of some bod called Jonathon Smith (I think) from the FSS, and that they checked for traces of blood but found none.

A slight aside, but an interesting one, that is the only place in the whole of John Lowe's report where the word "blood" is explicitly used ...

[DCI]

Possibly, but that's not actually clear from the photos as to how much space there actually was between the cot and the wardrobe door.

Carana, what has where the cot was, got to do with the recess behind the door?

Don't forget the cots were moved, between forensic photo's, being done. If the cot was that near the wardrobe, how did Kate get to the window?

[Benice]

Rather a coincidence that they 'got it wrong ' with only items related to the McCanns then, isn't it ?

Not really IMO.   If Grimes had made the dogs search other cars/places for as long as he made them search McCann related stuff - then there may well have been alerts elsewhere.

Take the cars for instance.  The longest time spent on any of the other cars was under 30 seconds.  Eddie was called back to the McCanns car for a full 2 minutes before he alerted. 

If Grime had only allowed Eddie 30 seconds for searching the McCann car, in line with the others, - there would have been no alert at the Renault.

And if Grime had made Eddie return to  all of the other cars for a full 2 minutes - he may well have alerted to one or more of them.

It was all down to time IMO. as I don't believe that all the other cars, the gym, streets and everywhere else Eddie searched could have possibly been totally sterile.

[Mrs. B]

Did someone say that Keela reacted in the flowerbed?

Not according to Amaral, apparently, only Eddie. But he might have gotten that wrong too.

- Outside, Eddie gives two more alerts of cadaver smell, on the varanda of the couple's bedroom and also in a garden situation directly below it. Here, the bark is weaker, like a "could be", with some doubt, like a human shrugging their shoulders.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html

[ferryman]

Not according to Amaral, apparently, only Eddie. But he might have gotten that wrong too.

- Outside, Eddie gives two more alerts of cadaver smell, on the varanda of the couple's bedroom and also in a garden situation directly below it. Here, the bark is weaker, like a "could be", with some doubt, like a human shrugging their shoulders.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html

In his rogatory interview, Grime was quizzed closely about whether anything could be deduced about the dog's certainty from the conviction (or otherwise) of the bark.

He was quite certain it could not ...