So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?

[DCI]

No it would not, because you would clearly see the white frame of the windows against the blackness of the room behind it  rather than a solid block of light coloured shutter.

Yes but my pic, shows the shutter up, more than it was on the night. The reiss pic, shows the cill is slightly below the wall.

Now this one is taken before any forensic people had touched it.



We can't guess how it was before different people had tried lifting it.

[Albertini]

Yes but my pic, shows the shutter up, more than it was on the night. The reiss pic, shows the cill is slightly below the wall.

Now this one is taken before any forensic people had touched it.



We can't guess how it was before different people had tried lifting it.

Yes after Gerry had ruined the forensic opportunities by lifting it himself before the police arrived.

Why would a professional person like Gerry so brazenly cock up the crime scene by attempting to lift up a shutter that was already up?

Any normal person would have said "no one touch the shutters until the Police get here, they've been lifted by an abductor".

It beggars belief.

We do know that Gerry said it was almost all the way up from his statement and given that then it is impossible in my view to not notice that almost fully opened shutter when walking past.

[AnneGuedes]

t is impossible in my view to not notice that almost fully opened shutter when walking past.

Walking towards the hall, yes, but not towards Agostinho da Silva.
There's an excellent night picture of the Oldfield and McCann windows in Mr Amaral's book, but I don't know how to post it.

[Redblossom]

Yes after Gerry had ruined the forensic opportunities by lifting it himself before the police arrived.

Why would a professional person like Gerry so brazenly cock up the crime scene by attempting to lift up a shutter that was already up?

Any normal person would have said "no one touch the shutters until the Police get here, they've been lifted by an abductor".

It beggars belief.

We do know that Gerry said it was almost all the way up from his statement and given that then it is impossible in my view to not notice that almost fully opened shutter when walking past.

Gerry, for some reason, wanted to know, even before he rang the police, how an alledged abductor entered the apartment, as IF this would help in any way whatsoever
 >@@(*&)

Thats on top of him knowing the back door was OPEN

Where is the logic here? Anywhere?

And yes  he tampered with the *evidence* and he *knew* he was doing so at the time, as he has said on tv in the Panorama show, he was careful to preserve it *later* by not allowing people into the kids bedroom, and not letting people touch anything, hypocrite


Night now

[faithlilly]

Yes after Gerry had ruined the forensic opportunities by lifting it himself before the police arrived.

Why would a professional person like Gerry so brazenly cock up the crime scene by attempting to lift up a shutter that was already up?

Any normal person would have said "no one touch the shutters until the Police get here, they've been lifted by an abductor".

It beggars belief.

We do know that Gerry said it was almost all the way up from his statement and given that then it is impossible in my view to not notice that almost fully opened shutter when walking past.

There was also a lamp on in the living room which would have shone through the bedroom and illuminated the window if, as the McCanns claim, the bedroom door was open.

[Benice]

I disagree. The last image kindly posted by DCi clearly shows that when walking out of the car park to the road the window is easily visible to anyone walking that way.

Remember Gerry said it was lifted virtually all the way up. It would and should have stood out a mile.

See here:



I maintain it is impossible for eight visits on that road between the group not to see the shutter open.

Well -  we shall have to agree to disagree then because the arial photo Heri posted showing the route JT and others took to return to their apartments does quite clearly show how easy it would be not to notice the window.

You are talking with hindsight about the shutters in 5A -  but the people walking across the carpark that night had no interest in them .    They had one aim in mind and that was to check their children and get back to eating their meal ASAP.   There are lots of doors and windows along the front of that block - why would they have any reason, particularly in the darK,  to be interested in any of them, let alone one window in particular i.e. 5A?
 
The photo of just one window is misleading because it doesn't show it in context with all the others along that block and because it is taken in daylight it's irrelevant to this particular debate anyway.  IMO.

(Hopefully if Heri pops in he will kindly  post the piccie I'm talking about).

[Benice]

Yes after Gerry had ruined the forensic opportunities by lifting it himself before the police arrived.

Why would a professional person like Gerry so brazenly cock up the crime scene by attempting to lift up a shutter that was already up?

Any normal person would have said "no one touch the shutters until the Police get here, they've been lifted by an abductor".

It beggars belief.

We do know that Gerry said it was almost all the way up from his statement and given that then it is impossible in my view to not notice that almost fully opened shutter when walking past.

So you think 'professional' people don't have the same feelings or reactions as non-professional people?   Gerry was a distraught father at the time not a policeman  -  and the expectation by some that he should have behaved like one is what beggars belief imo , especially as the actual policemen who were supposed to act like policemen failed miserably to do so when they arrived.

If a Firefighter turned up to a fire and found his own daughter had died in it  would you expect him to be less traumatised  than someone who wasn't a firefighter -  because he was used to it.     Unbelievable!

[AnneGuedes]

You are talking with hindsight about the shutters in 5A -  but the people walking across the carpark that night had no interest in them .    They had one aim in mind and that was to check their children and get back to eating their meal ASAP.   There are lots of doors and windows along the front of that block -

There are not "lots of doors and windows", only 3 windows with shutters close to each other between the withdrawn 5A door and the hall. One window belongs to 5A, the two others to 5B. It is not far-fetched to imagine Mr Oldfield would instinctively look at his windows and likely notice the difference with the 5A window.

[AnneGuedes]

Why not try the shutters instead of searching and calling for your daughter, if you know that she's gone for good ?

[faithlilly]

There are not "lots of doors and windows", only 3 windows with shutters close to each other between the withdrawn 5A door and the hall. One window belongs to 5A, the two others to 5B. It is not far-fetched to imagine Mr Oldfield would instinctively look at his windows and likely notice the difference with the 5A window.

Amazing coincidence also that Oldfield was asked, or decided, to check inside the apartment,  rather than simply at the shutters as every other night, on the very night that the shutters and window were allegedly open ! What are the chances ?

[Benice]

There are not "lots of doors and windows", only 3 windows with shutters close to each other between the withdrawn 5A door and the hall. One window belongs to 5A, the two others to 5B. It is not far-fetched to imagine Mr Oldfield would instinctively look at his windows and likely notice the difference with the 5A window.

IIRC Matthew Oldfield walked across the car park with Russell - so IMO it's more likely they were chatting to oneanother and not scrutinising the frontage of the apartment block - (the whole length of which was stretched out before them)  -  mainly because they had no reason to.
 

[Benice]

Why not try the shutters instead of searching and calling for your daughter, if you know that she's gone for good ?

He did both Anne. 

[AnneGuedes]

He did both Anne.

What won priority is one of those details the devil adores.

[Benice]

What won priority is one of those details the devil adores.

We've been here before Anne, have you forgotten?   IMO Gerry had a tiny little bit of hope that Madeleine might just have opened the shutters and window  herself - because he thought they could not be opened from the outside.  So he tried them and found to his horror that they could be opened from the outside - and so that tiny little bit of hope was gone.

Goodnight Anne.

[AnneGuedes]

IIRC Matthew Oldfield walked across the car park with Russell - so IMO it's more likely they were chatting to oneanother and not scrutinising the frontage of the apartment block - (the whole length of which was stretched out before them)  -  mainly because they had no reason to.

Mr O'Brian heard his daughter crying without sticking his ear against the shutter.