What Happened Between 18:00 & 20:00 On the 3rd With The Tapas 7

[Albertini]

Sadie, i do not know why you keep propagating the myth that Payne was somehow an independent witness.

Let's look at the situation regarding his supposed 6:40 check.

Here's the best analysis i have seen of that supposed meeting and it is posted here to save me several hours going through all the statements:

The questions about the visit arise at the very beginning since it was not mentioned by David Payne, Gerry or Kate McCann in their initial police statements, despite Kate McCann's repeated assertions in the book that she had told the police "everything". The first reference to it comes, oddly, not from either of the individuals involved but from Gerry McCann, in his May 10 statement:

"David went to visit Kate and the children and returned close to 19H00, trying to convince the deponent to continue to play tennis, which he refused."

Note the initial locution, "David went to visit Kate and the children": there is no mention of any reason for the visit. Unfortunately the PJ did not hear what the principals had to say: neither Payne nor Kate McCann were present for that second round of interviews. Kate had cried off with stress; quite how Payne avoided questioning is unclear. Whatever, the result was that the Portuguese police received no information about the claimed visit from one of the participants until Kate McCann was questioned over four months later, on September 6 2007. And they still had no statement from Payne; in fact they were unable to compare his account with that of Kate McCann until they listened in to his rogatory interview in April 2008.

Kate McCann's September 6 statement runs thus:

"While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40 p.m. and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the balcony door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who was at the balcony door. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left through this door. She saw that it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly."

She now departs from direct knowledge deriving from her own experience, as she often does on important matters, adding helpfully:

"David's visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area, which had been arranged but did not take place."

Then, reverting from hearsay to evidence, she concluded:

"David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn't even actually enter the flat, he remained at the balcony door. According to her he then left for the tennis courts where Gerry was. The time was around 6:30-6:40PM."

This was the first appearance of the "Gerry asked Payne..." story — after four months! — and it was followed some twenty four hours later by the same story from Gerry himself in his arguido interview.

Two weeks later, with the couple safely back in England and during that muffled and murky period when they and the lawyers were using the media to explore their vulnerabilities, a lengthy and carefully contrived leak was given to the London Times by Clarence Mitchell. The story purported to be about disagreements between the McCanns as to how far to co-operate with the PJ but buried half way into the story we find this:

"Last week, however, a senior police source told a Portuguese newspaper that officers were still suspicious about the McCanns' movements during the "missing six hours" before Madeleine's disappearance.

Sources close to the family [Clarence Mitchell] say that David Payne, one of the holiday party, saw Madeleine being put to bed when he visited the McCann apartment at 7PM. Previously the last confirmed sighting of Madeleine was at 2.29PM when a photograph of her and Gerry was taken at the swimming pool.

Kate and Gerry McCann believe Payne's testimony will be crucial in proving their innocence. They arrived at the tapas bar at 8.30PM, which would leave just an hour and a half in which they are supposed to have killed their daughter and disposed of the body.

A source close to the legal team [this was also Mitchell] said: 'If they were responsible for killing their daughter, how would they have done so and hidden the body in that time? There is a very limited window of opportunity.'"

So the story had developed even further. Note that Payne himself, after almost six months, has still told the Portuguese police absolutely nothing about the visit. The only reference to it that he ever seems to have made comes in a curiously unsatisfactory email from the Leicester police to their Portuguese counterparts accompanying some forwarded statements. Detective Constable Marshall wrote that Payne had stated informally:

"...that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 [probably an error for 7PM] on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed."

Well!

The situation, therefore, was that Payne's version of this visit was still open and, as it were, up for grabs. But not yet and certainly not for grabbing via the newspapers by the McCanns and their spokesman. As we have seen from his ingenious defence of the "checking" Payne has an instinct for keeping his options open. The claims were left standing, without rebuttal, for several weeks and perhaps there was a hope somewhere that it reflected Payne's acquiescence in the story and the altered timescale. Not likely.

In late October, strangely enough on the same date that Detective Constable Marshall sent his email along with the Gaspar statements to Portugal, he made the extremely rare move of communicating via journalists himself, speaking effusively to the Daily Mail about Kate McCann and her lack of problems with her children [media code: no, she wasn't nutty or stressed-out enough to have whacked the child and accidentally killed her]. But 7PM was now firmly out: in that same article Mitchell and the McCanns had to reverse themselves, now stating "David Payne saw Madeleine at around 6.30pm." Point made.

In April 2008, just under a year after the child's disappearance, David Payne was finally compelled to talk about the visit, making a statement to Leicester police as part of the rogatory interviews. The Portuguese police representatives watched the televised proceedings from behind a screen. Whether Lusitanian guffaws of disbelief resounded from their vantage point is not disclosed but Payne and Kate McCann seemed to be not just on different visits but different planets.

Q: Okay, and it was at what point that Gerry said to you go and, would you mind checking at Kate?

DP: I had to go back to my room to you know change into stuff appropriate for playing tennis in, and err so he knew that I'd walk up that by and past so he said oh why don't you err, you know can you just pop in on the way, the way up...[fails to describe reason for visit]

KM again: David's visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area,

Q: Did you open the door? Or was it already open?

DP: I think it was already open.

KM: This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left through this door. She saw that it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly.

Q: Did you actually go into the apartment?

DP: I did.

Q: Or did you do the conversation from the door?

DP: No, definitely was inside the apartment, you know whether it be two or three steps into the apartment or you know however many, but I was definitely in the apartment.

KM: He didn't even actually enter the flat; he remained at the balcony door.

Q: Okay, so now what I'm gonna try and ask you to recollect, what everybody was wearing.

DP: I'm afraid that is, you know I'm, I cannot recall at all. I know that's, you'd think that'd be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember. As I say the, from the children point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know, white, but I couldn't say exactly what they were wearing. Err…

Q: But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example?

DP: I can't, no.

KM: She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who was at the balcony door.

Q: I'm gonna pin you down and ask you how long you think you were in there for.

DP: In their apartment, it, it, I'd say three minutes, five maximum.

KM: David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds.

Q: When you finished ...did you say anything to Gerry about, about the fact that his family were fine?

DP: Yeah, err yeah, I haven't mentioned this before, but yes, yeah I'd certainly, when we met up I said oh yeah, you know everything's fine there, you know probably along the lines of you know you've got a bit more of a free pass you know you can carry on for a bit longer...[fails to give reason for visit]

KM: ...asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area.

What can one say? It doesn't corroborate and it doesn't tally: there might have been visits to apartment 5A by David Payne or other members of the group that day but the written evidence shows that the one described by Payne and the McCanns did not take place.

Dangerous waters! What does Kate have to say now? Very little. In the book she falls back on copying out her September 6 statement:

"At around six forty, as I was drying myself off, there was a knock on the patio doors and I heard David's voice calling me. Swiftly wrapping my towel around me I stepped into the sitting room."

But then she uses words that aren't in the statement: "David had popped his head round the patio doors looking for me," which quite cleverly attempts to resolve the open/closed doors discrepancy as well as shading another question — inside the doors or outside the doors? Neither! He is in the doorway, head popping.

Having dipped her toes she moves rapidly back to the much safer territory of what others had said:

"The others had met up with Gerry at the tennis courts and he'd mentioned we were thinking of bringing the kids to the play area. David had nipped up to see if he could give me a hand taking them down. As they were all ready for bed and seemed content with their books I decided they were probably past the stage of needing any more activity. So he went back to the tennis while I quickly dressed and sat down on the couch with the children."

One wonders which lawyers were involved in the "popping" paragraph because, by altering her statement, Kate McCann has provided internal evidence that she is covertly attempting to smooth away inconsistencies that are hazardous for her rather than trying to throw light on the truth as she vowed to do. Oh, and the bit about Payne only staying for thirty seconds has somehow gone missing.

What i hadn't known or didn't realise was this statement from Payne given on 24th October 2007

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm

So even in October he was saying that Gerry was there as well!

This is not a truthful statement.

The clear implication of this supposed visit is that it was generated specifically to reduce the time the PJ (and the media) perceived the parents were alone with the children to answer the question which you yourself are asking "how could they do something in only 2 hours".

But they have all made such a mess of it, it's value as corroborating evidence is nil.

[sadie]

Sadie, i do not know why you keep propagating the myth that Payne was somehow an independent witness.

Let's look at the situation regarding his supposed 6:40 check.

Here's the best analysis i have seen of that supposed meeting and it is posted here to save me several hours going through all the statements:

What i hadn't known or didn't realise was this statement from Payne given on 24th October 2007

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm

So even in October he was saying that Gerry was there as well!

This is not a truthful statement.

The clear implication of this supposed visit is that it was generated specifically to reduce the time the PJ (and the media) perceived the parents were alone with the children to answer the question which you yourself are asking "how could they do something in only 2 hours".

But they have all made such a mess of it, it's value as corroborating evidence is nil.

This was a third party statement and not David Paynes.  It is not signed by David Payne at all.  Therfore it is of little interst to me.  Mistakes can be, and are, made

If you are going to use this third party statement, then it is OK with me because it shows that Fiona was at the mccanns apartment until Gerry arrived back at 19H10

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to

Ok independant witness fiona payne was with Kate and Gerry until 19H10 (at least).

That alters the timeline considerably.

Kate and Gerry weer with the kids on their own, only from 19H10 until about 20H30 /20H35




Now down to ONLY  1Hour 20 minutes on their own with the children.  Not much time with showering hair washing, make up etc etc to do any dirty deeds, is there?


Red, the total time that the Mccanns were on their own, with the little ones ... and in daylight.

YOUR TIME OF 5 HOURS is down to 1 HOUR 20 MINUTES

Thank you Albertini for alerting me to that.   Very kind of you

[Albertini]

But then you put in context against other statements of Fiona Payne's:

4th May:

On the day before yesterday, they slightly altered their routine - they went to the beach with the children and her mother Dianne. They arrived there around 15h45 and left at 18h15, and headed towards the tennis court until about 19h00. Immediately afterwards, the witness headed towards the apartment with her children, and her mother. Ten minutes later her husband David appeared. In the apartment her mother, helped by her husband David, bathed the children whilst the witness went jogging on the beach until around 20h00. Afterwards, she returned to the apartment and got ready. She left around 20h45, accompanied by David and her mother, in order to meet the rest of the group in the Tapas restaurant.

Rogatory Statement:

Reply    “Erm, I can up to a point, yeah.  He was, as I say, he left, as I see it, around six, erm, and then I wouldn’t have seen him again until I got to the tennis courts to see him play tennis, so that would have been about half six and then he was playing tennis for that whole half an hour and, as I say, we left him playing tennis, when me and my mum went up to bath the kids and he, he didn’t sort of return until after seven, ten past seven, quarter past seven, something like that, so, yeah, that’s where he was.  And then the rest is what he’s told me, erm, again, I couldn’t tell you times, but I know before he went, went to tennis, he popped in on Kate and the kids, erm, and saw them all in their pyjamas, ready for bed, having a story, before going to join for the tennis, so I can only assume that that was between, erm, you know, six and half past”.

No mention in either official statement about Fiona going to the apartments or seeing Gerry & Kate there.

Excellent, thanks for bringing this up.

Yet more evidence of lying that i hadn't seen before!!

Not just lying about the times of the tennis tournament and what time they all came and went but lying to give Gerry & Kate an alibi!

The whole issue of what happened from 6:00pm onwards is now even murkier!

Thanks for that Sadie, that's another example of the lies which i will now add to my memory banks!

 

[Albertini]

And the bottom line is that depsite how big and colourful the fonts that Sadie uses in her posts, her entire theory about the time the McCann's had alone is based purely on the evidence and statements of the Tapas 7 group.

Now, as my evidence has shown these statements contain such glaring discrepancies, contradictions, collusion and lies and certainly do not corroborate or tally.

As such any reasonable person would quickly see given the mess of a picture that these statements paint, their value as independent or reliable witnesses to this particular time frame, is worthless.

It also suggests that as this particular area of their statements is such a toxic mix of lies and deceit that the overall veracity of their complete statements and them as witnesses should be brought into question and requires independent verification to be confirmed as true.

So Sadie you can think your timeline is accurate but in reality it is as worthless as the statements of the people you are relying on to prove your point.

[sadie]

And the bottom line is that depsite how big and colourful the fonts that Sadie uses in her posts, her entire theory about the time the McCann's had alone is based purely on the evidence and statements of the Tapas 7 group.

Now, as my evidence has shown these statements contain such glaring discrepancies, contradictions, collusion and lies and certainly do not corroborate or tally.

As such any reasonable person would quickly see given the mess of a picture that these statements paint, their value as independent or reliable witnesses to this particular time frame, is worthless.

It also suggests that as this particular area of their statements is such a toxic mix of lies and deceit that the overall veracity of their complete statements and them as witnesses should be brought into question and requires independent verification to be confirmed as true.

So Sadie you can think your timeline is accurate but in reality it is as worthless as the statements of the people you are relying on to prove your point.

Well it was definitely in here that she visited Kate, her special friend, I believe:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm [but covering Fiona Paynes Statements]

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

Just because something isn't mentioned, doesn't mean it didn't happen.  It was simply so ordinary that it didn't get mentioned, just as Fiona failed to mention that she walked back from the beach with Jane and Rachel anf their kids


Rachels statement mentions it, but fionas doesn't.  She just doesn't mention it ! Simples

Rachels statement 11/09/2007

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-11-MAY07.htm

----- After the game of tennis, the witness returned home to rest, her husband and RUSSEL having gone to the beach of Luz to sail. At about 15:45, her daughter having woken up, she took her to the beach of Luz in the company of DIANE, Jane, Fiona and their respective children, where they found MATHEW, RUSSEL and DAVTD. At 17H30 the children dined in one of restaurants by the beach, [she] not having detected any abnormal or strange situation.
----- By 18:30, the women and children  returned from the beach in the direction of the "OCEAN CLUB" with a view to seeing their husbands play tennis, who had returned from the beach about five minutes before. Prior to going to the apartment she was with the children in the playground area, next to the "tapas", until about 19.00.

Fionas statement, 4th May, omits that detail.  It just doesn't mention the others that walked back with her.  Omitted and nothing sinister about that.  Simply not mentioned:

On the day before yesterday, they slightly altered their routine - they went to the beach with the children and her mother Dianne. They arrived there around 15h45 and left at 18h15, and headed towards the tennis court until about 19h00. Immediately afterwards, the witness headed towards the apartment with her children, and her mother.

Rachels statement (and Janes) mentions the group walking back, but Fionas doesn't. Just cos it isn't mentioned by fiona doesn't mean it didn't happen

Fiona must have said she called in to see Kate, because it is mentioned in the one statement, which i will repeat

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm [but covering Fiona Paynes Statements]

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

[Albertini]

So why did Kate and Gerry never mention it?

Also how did she walk back to the apartment with Kate when Jane says in her statement of the 4th May:

Russell, Matthew and David left the beach a little earlier to go to the tennis court (8), as it was men's tennis evening. When the witness, together with her friends and children returned from the beach at about 18h20, they passed by the tennis courts and saw all the men, including Gerry on court. They stayed there talking to them for about 20/30 minutes. Gerald behaved normally.

She thinks Kate was in the apartment (1) putting the children to bed.

And in her statement of 10th May

Her husband Russell O'Brien, Matthew Oldfield and David Payne left the beach a little earlier they having gone to the tennis courts, it was the night of the men's tennis. When she, together with the friends and children, returned from the beach, at 18h20, they went to the tennis courts having seen that all the men, including Gerald McCann, were on the court. They stayed to talk to them them for about 20/30 minutes. Gerald McCann comported himself as usual.
 
She thinks that Kate Healy was in the apartment getting the children ready for bed.


Now can you see why Rebelo wanted a reconstruction?

It's a complete mess, the lot of it.

[sadie]

So why did Kate and Gerry never mention it?

Also how did she walk back to the apartment with Kate when Jane says in her statement of the 4th May:

Russell, Matthew and David left the beach a little earlier to go to the tennis court (8), as it was men's tennis evening. When the witness, together with her friends and children returned from the beach at about 18h20, they passed by the tennis courts and saw all the men, including Gerry on court. They stayed there talking to them for about 20/30 minutes. Gerald behaved normally.

She thinks Kate was in the apartment (1) putting the children to bed.

And in her statement of 10th May

Her husband Russell O'Brien, Matthew Oldfield and David Payne left the beach a little earlier they having gone to the tennis courts, it was the night of the men's tennis. When she, together with the friends and children, returned from the beach, at 18h20, they went to the tennis courts having seen that all the men, including Gerald McCann, were on the court. They stayed to talk to them them for about 20/30 minutes. Gerald McCann comported himself as usual.
 
She thinks that Kate Healy was in the apartment getting the children ready for bed.


Now can you see why Rebelo wanted a reconstruction?

It's a complete mess, the lot of it.

No mess there at all.  You are reading it the way you WANT to believe it ... not understanding it in full.


1.
Also how did she walk back to the apartment with Kate when Jane says in her statement of the 4th May:

Where did I say that Albertini?  Nowhere did I say that Kate walked back to the apartment with the others, cos she didn't..   Read what I said again please Albertini


 She did not walk back to the apartment with the others as is clearly stated in the statements and  as we all know. 

Kate was jogging and waved to the others on the beach.  She arrived arrived back at OC well before the other women.  She joined the children and Gerry at the outside tapas where the little ones were having their teas. 

[I am doing the next bit from memory, but am pretty confident it is correct.]Madeleine was so tired that somewhere in the period 5.30 - 5.40pm [kate and Gerrys statement differ by ten minutes here] they carried Madeleine back to their apartment.


2.
Nothing wrong with either of the statements you quote.  Don't know what you are going on about.


Kate and the children had left the Tapas area at about 5.35, well before the other women had returned.
 
When the other women and children  arrived back quite considerably afterwards. Kate and kiddies were not there.  Kate was Fionas special friend; they worked together for a period.   It is obvious that she asked and someone told her that Kate had gone to the apartment to get her kids really for bed.
 
She didn't know for sure that was absolutely correct, cos maybe they had gone somewhere else for a while, so she was saying that she THOUGHT that Kate was in the apartment getting the kids really for bed.  The absolute truth.


3. As for Kate and Gerry never mentioning it.  Is that so?  I haven't the energy to keep rereading these enormous statements, so I will believe you without proof.

Not important anyway, cos in everyones statement, things are omitted.  Just cos they didn't say it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.


See my post of August 10, 2013, 05:56:13 PM, just up the page for an example of this


Remember, 5A was on Fionas way back to her apartment.  Kate and Fiona were special friends.  It was Fiona who comforted Kate afterwards and stayed with her whilst Gerry searched and did other things.


She may only have popped to the patio door but she definitely states that she visited Kate

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm [but covering Fiona Paynes Statements]

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.



The whole lot ...... if you fully read the files and make an effort to understand them = Simples.


You are making a meal out of nothing Albertini



Now, if you will excuse me.  I am very busy atm ... must get on

[Albertini]

No mess there at all.  You are reading it the way you WANT to believe it ... not understanding it in full.


1.
Also how did she walk back to the apartment with Kate when Jane says in her statement of the 4th May:

Where did I say that Albertini?  Nowhere did I say that Kate walked back to the apartment with the others, cos she didn't..   Read what I said again please Albertini


 She did not walk back to the apartment with the others as is clearly stated in the statements and  as we all know. 

Kate was jogging and waved to the others on the beach.  She arrived arrived back at OC well before the other women.  She joined the children and Gerry at the outside tapas where the little ones were having their teas. 

[I am doing the next bit from memory, but am pretty confident it is correct.]Madeleine was so tired that somewhere in the period 5.30 - 5.40pm [kate and Gerrys statement differ by ten minutes here] they carried Madeleine back to their apartment.


2.
Nothing wrong with either of the statements you quote.  Don't know what you are going on about.


Kate and the children had left the Tapas area at about 5.35, well before the other women had returned.
 
When the other women and children  arrived back quite considerably afterwards. Kate and kiddies were not there.  Kate was Fionas special friend; they worked together for a period.   It is obvious that she asked and someone told her that Kate had gone to the apartment to get her kids really for bed.
 
She didn't know for sure that was absolutely correct, cos maybe they had gone somewhere else for a while, so she was saying that she THOUGHT that Kate was in the apartment getting the kids really for bed.  The absolute truth.


3. As for Kate and Gerry never mentioning it.  Is that so?  I haven't the energy to keep rereading these enormous statements, so I will believe you without proof.

Not important anyway, cos in everyones statement, things are omitted.  Just cos they didn't say it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.


See my post of August 10, 2013, 05:56:13 PM, just up the page for an example of this


Remember, 5A was on Fionas way back to her apartment.  Kate and Fiona were special friends.  It was Fiona who comforted Kate afterwards and stayed with her whilst Gerry searched and did other things.


She may only have popped to the patio door but she definitely states that she visited Kate

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm [but covering Fiona Paynes Statements]

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.



The whole lot ...... if you fully read the files and make an effort to understand them = Simples.


You are making a meal out of nothing Albertini



Now, if you will excuse me.  I am very busy atm ... must get on

No i think you will find you are not understanding it.

You are quoting Fiona saying:

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

We know that Fiona was with the group at the Paraiso, who left to go to the tennis courts at almost 19:00.

We know from Jane's statement that Kate wasn't there at the tennis courts when the group arrived from the Paraiso and Jane presumed she was in her apartment.

So how could Fiona go to the McCann apartment at 19:00 TOGETHER WITH KATE, when Kate was already there?

And how could she go with Kate when she says in her own 4th May statement:

On the day before yesterday, they slightly altered their routine - they went to the beach with the children and her mother Dianne. They arrived there around 15h45 and left at 18h15, and headed towards the tennis court until about 19h00. Immediately afterwards, the witness headed towards the apartment with her children, and her mother. Ten minutes later her husband David appeared. In the apartment her mother, helped by her husband David, bathed the children whilst the witness went jogging on the beach until around 20h00.

Also and as an aside how could Kate have left the Tapas with the chiildren at 17:35 when Jane saw Kate jogging on the beach at 17:15?

If you are going to try and be patronising to me at least get your facts straight.

[DCI]

No i think you will find you are not understanding it.

You are quoting Fiona saying:

We know that Fiona was with the group at the Paraiso, who left to go to the tennis courts at almost 19:00.

We know from Jane's statement that Kate wasn't there at the tennis courts when the group arrived from the Paraiso and Jane presumed she was in her apartment.

So how could Fiona go to the McCann apartment at 19:00 TOGETHER WITH KATE, when Kate was already there?

And how could she go with Kate when she says in her own 4th May statement:
Also and as an aside how could Kate have left the Tapas with the chiildren at 17:35 when Jane saw Kate jogging on the beach at 17:15?

If you are going to try and be patronising to me at least get your facts straight.

Facts.

They arrived at the Paraiso at 5.31, left at 6.36.

As they left the Paraiso at 6.36, not 7pm I'd say thats pleanty of time to meet up with Kate and go to the McCann apartment at 19:00 TOGETHER WITH KATE

Jane only presumed Kate was in her apartment.

So Jane saw Kate jogging on the beach, at 5.15, and where is the Paraiso situated (on the beach). Kate I imagine would have picked up the children on her way back 

Arriving at the Paraiso



Leaving the Paraiso

[sadie]

No i think you will find you are not understanding it.


1.  You are quoting Fiona saying:

TOGETHER WITH KATE, when Kate was already there?

And how could she go with Kate when she says in her own 4th May statement:
Also and as an aside how could Kate have left the Tapas with the chiildren at 17:35 when Jane saw Kate jogging on the beach at 17:15?

If you are going to try and be patronising to me at least get your facts straight.

I am not being patronising Albertini.  I am just discussing and presenting facts.

And how could she go with Kate when she says in her own 4th May statement:
Also and as an aside how could Kate have left the Tapas with the chiildren at 17:35 when Jane saw Kate jogging on the beach at 17:15?

You obviously haven't read and absorbed the statements of Kate and Gerry.

Gerry was with the little ones when they were having their tea,  Kate arrived back part way thru their tea.  It is only about 515 metres Paradiso to the Tapas, so Kate, being fit and a keen runner, would have done that in under 3 minutes. [world womens record for 1500 metres is less than 4 minutes]   She could have been back by about 17.18pm without any trouble. 

So Albym please get YOUR facts straight and cut the accusations.


The 3 children, especially Madeleine were very tired so they left the (outside) restaurant at about 5.35pm To go back to 5A.  Madeleine was so tired that she had to be carried.

2.  You say, how could she be with Kate when Kate was already there?

TOGETHER WITH KATE, when Kate was already there?

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that "she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate"

That is a third party statement, just the same as you used a third party statement several posts ago, I am using one.  altho i find third party statements unsatisfactory, there is no reason to believe it is untrue.  For it to be there it had to have been said,  even if not recorded in a statement.

Having spent hours reading, (and skimming in places), I cannot find the words in any Fiona Payne statement.  Fionas statement seems as long as a book and i am not re-reading it, or the other shorter one again ...  cos i am diabetic and my eyes are sore and watering from all the small print reading and I am not going thru it again.


For it to have been mentioned, it must have been said, unless it got mixed up in translations or a typo

The wording is not how I would say it, but it is a colloqial expression,  the type of which I have heard before in the Midlands.  And it could mean that (i) she and Kate walked up together, or it could mean that (ii) she walked up and was together with Kate (in the flat).  Maybe only fleetingly, but 5A was en route for her, Kate was her close friend and she hadn't seen much of her that day

[Albertini]

Facts.

They arrived at the Paraiso at 5.31, left at 6.36.

As they left the Paraiso at 6.36, not 7pm I'd say thats pleanty of time to meet up with Kate and go to the McCann apartment at 19:00 TOGETHER WITH KATE

Jane only presumed Kate was in her apartment.

So Jane saw Kate jogging on the beach, at 5.15, and where is the Paraiso situated (on the beach). Kate I imagine would have picked up the children on her way back 

Arriving at the Paraiso



Leaving the Paraiso

All well and good apart from  Kate McCann in her September statement:

When she finished jogging, at around 5:20/5:30 p.m., she went to the Tapas area. Gerry was there, as well as the twins and Madeleine who were having dinner at separate tables. Madeleine had been taken to the area by the nannies. Her parents were required to sign the register when the meal was over, at around 5.30 p.m.. During the meal Kate asked Madeleine if she was sad because the other children in the group had gone to the beach without her; she replied that she wasn’t, but was rather tired. She asked Kate to carry her back to the apartment. Kate agreed, and Gerry led the twins back to the apartment, as well. Tiredness was due to the intense daily activities, not to any sickness.

They arrived at the apartment at around 5:40 p.m., earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00 p.m. At the apartment they both bathed the children, and close to 6:00 p.m. Gerry went to the tennis courts, right after the children had finished their bath. They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered through the same door.

After the children’s bath, already alone, she put pyjamas and nappies on the twins, and gave them each a glass of milk and biscuits. Before bathing the children and because it was early, they had thought of taking them to the recreation area, but then decided against this because of tiredness.

While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40 p.m. and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the balcony door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who was at the balcony door. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left through this door. She saw that it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly. David’s visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area, which had been arranged but did not take place. David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn’t even actually enter the flat, he remained at the balcony door. According to her he then left for the tennis courts where Gerry was. The time was around 6:30-6:40 p.m.

After David left, Kate dressed and sat with the children, Madeleine on her lap. She was wearing a top, she doesn’t remember what colour it was, a green long-sleeved t-shirt, blue denim trousers. Sports shoes and white socks.

She read a story to the children in the living room, on the sofa in front of the balcony door, identified on the diagram with the letter D. At 7:00 p.m. Gerry arrived and entered through the balcony door. He sat on the sofa identified with letter E. She doesn’t know if the story was finished, but thinks she was still sitting on the sofa.

She doesn’t remember having changed the layout of the furniture in the living room, the sofas, the table or others. She says that the sofa (letter E) supposedly was against the side window, because she doesn’t remember anyone having gone behind it. She does not know if this window was open or closed, she does not remember it ever being open, or looking through the window.

After Gerry arrived the children went to brush their teeth and she then read them another story, this time all four of them sitting on Madeleine’s bed. She thinks that Gerry entered the room, but does not recall him sitting on the bed. During the story Madeleine was lying on the pillow, but alert and paying attention to the story. Afterwards both twins kissed Madeleine, she thinks that Gerry was in the room, and each one of them, the deponent and Gerry, placed a twin in its cot at the same time, between Madeleine’s bed and the bed under the window. They also kissed Madeleine, who was already lying down. She was under the covers, she thinks, because it was a bit cold. She normally clutched the soft toy and if she wasn’t holding it then it was next to her, on the left. She remained lying down on her left side, with the soft toy and a pink blanket, which she thinks was covering her. The twins were laid down on their backs, covered with open weave blankets. She says that she doesn’t know if the children were in the same positions when they left the apartment.

It was around 7:15 p.m. when they put the children to bed and checked they were sleeping, she is sure of this.

She says she never left the apartment after 5:40pm, so how could she have walked back with Fiona when she never left?

[AnneGuedes]

I wonder why these bizarre Payne statements aren't in the files. Was there some part concerning the Gaspar that was thought better to keep off the record (DC 1756 Mike Marshall's letter accompanies the Gaspar statement) ? But the Gaspar statement should have been kept off the record imo and wasn't.
There's no doubt the Paynes replied, writing, to questions, they made no second statement as the others did.
If Mike Marshall transcribed wrongly 7 pm in 17, there's no reason to suspect what he says.
His letter is very interesting as it shows how UK and PT officers worked together.