Could the cadaver scent have been planted?

[Eleanor]

I'm not following the logic. Wouldn't a stranger abduction also be a shameful crime committed within Portugal's borders?

Especially as it highlighted the possibility that this had already happened before.  And that one isn't going to go away in a hurry either.

[Carana]

Wrong !  Mr Grime stated precisely that Eddie didn't react to cadaverin, simply because the dog hadn't been trained with that synthetic molecule. If someone planted, perhaps an acte manqué of Mr McCann wishing to be caught after all, only at the morgue or in the cemetery.

Where did Grime say that Eddie didn't react to cadaverine as opposed to pseudo-scent?


I'm not suggesting that Eddie would react to living humans with bad breath, but cadaverine and putrescine are even found in the saliva of healthy, living humans.




Arch Oral Biol. 2003 Apr ;48 (4):323-7  12663078  Cit:8
go to Pubmedgo to Scholargo to Googleshow EndNote Citationshow BibTex Citation Update citations of this paper
Time profile of putrescine, cadaverine, indole and skatole in human saliva.
M Cooke, N Leeves, C White   
Centre for Chemical Sciences, Royal Holloway, University of London, Egham, Surrey TW20 OEX, UK. mcooke@moorymeadow.freeserve.co.uk
The concentrations of putrescine, cadaverine, indole and skatole were determined in the saliva of healthy human volunteers upon waking and at time points during the day. Putrescine was found to be the most abundant of the amines studied, followed by cadaverine then indole. Skatole could not be detected in the saliva samples at any time point. The amines were found in the highest concentrations immediately upon waking (mean concentrations (microg/ml): putrescine 33.0+/-19.0, cadaverine 17.6+/-16.7 and indole 0.4+/-0.4) with a rapid decrease following consumption of breakfast and brushing their teeth (mean concentrations (microg/ml): putrescine 7.0+/-6.4, cadaverine 3.1+/-4.7 and indole 0.04+/-0.09). Putrescine and cadaverine then increased in concentration during the day apart from a decrease post-lunch caused by increased salivary flow and mechanical cleaning due to mastication. An analytical method based on high performance liquid chromatography and fluorescence detection has been developed to quantify amines in human saliva. Sodium fluoride has been shown to be an effective inhibitor of amine formation in saliva at room temperature allowing samples to be collected and kept without requiring cold storage.
Keywords: skatole; putrescine; cadaverine; saliva; indole; putrescine cadaverine; human saliva; amine; time profile; upon wake; cau; microg/ml; concentration; wake; concentration microg/ml;
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/paper:12663078

[stephen25000]

No evidence needed - just expressing an opinion, as the poster Luz did.

Precisely what political pressure could Portugal bring to bear on the UK ?

[Chinagirl]

Precisely what political pressure could Portugal bring to bear on the UK ?

Perhaps little to none, as the other way round, but I was referring to politically pressure Portuguese authorities could bring on their own investigators.

As for the UK using political influence on Portugal, or interfering in any way in this case is, I feel, nothing more that [ censored word ] territory.

[Redblossom]

Where did Grime say that Eddie didn't react to cadaverine as opposed to pseudo-scent?


I'm not suggesting that Eddie would react to living humans with bad breath, but cadaverine and putrescine are even found in the saliva of healthy, living humans.




Arch Oral Biol. 2003 Apr ;48 (4):323-7  12663078  Cit:8
go to Pubmedgo to Scholargo to Googleshow EndNote Citationshow BibTex Citation Update citations of this paper
Time profile of putrescine, cadaverine, indole and skatole in human saliva.
M Cooke, N Leeves, C White   
Centre for Chemical Sciences, Royal Holloway, University of London, Egham, Surrey TW20 OEX, UK. mcooke@moorymeadow.freeserve.co.uk
The concentrations of putrescine, cadaverine, indole and skatole were determined in the saliva of healthy human volunteers upon waking and at time points during the day. Putrescine was found to be the most abundant of the amines studied, followed by cadaverine then indole. Skatole could not be detected in the saliva samples at any time point. The amines were found in the highest concentrations immediately upon waking (mean concentrations (microg/ml): putrescine 33.0+/-19.0, cadaverine 17.6+/-16.7 and indole 0.4+/-0.4) with a rapid decrease following consumption of breakfast and brushing their teeth (mean concentrations (microg/ml): putrescine 7.0+/-6.4, cadaverine 3.1+/-4.7 and indole 0.04+/-0.09). Putrescine and cadaverine then increased in concentration during the day apart from a decrease post-lunch caused by increased salivary flow and mechanical cleaning due to mastication. An analytical method based on high performance liquid chromatography and fluorescence detection has been developed to quantify amines in human saliva. Sodium fluoride has been shown to be an effective inhibitor of amine formation in saliva at room temperature allowing samples to be collected and kept without requiring cold storage.
Keywords: skatole; putrescine; cadaverine; saliva; indole; putrescine cadaverine; human saliva; amine; time profile; upon wake; cau; microg/ml; concentration; wake; concentration microg/ml;
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/paper:12663078

What are you suggesting then? Unless Im having a blonde moment.
 >@@(*&)

Did you not know the scent of decomposition, from dead pigs and humans, which is what the dog was trained on, is apparently made up of hundreds of chemical components, not two or three or four, that are found commonly in living human beings in a variety of ways...if it were the case that the cadaver dog alerted to these, it would be alerting left right and centre all the time, which would  render its deployment in seeking for remnant cadaver scent in crime scenes worthless, elementary my Dear Watson...no? Plus the fact, if it did do so, it failed spectacularly to alert to bad breath, body odour, period blood, urine, clipped toenails, chucked condoms, nappy contents, even rotting pizza! Oh and coconuts, of course, not to mention rotting pork chops, (and the bizarre idea that some woman could have aborted secretly in 5a, no, actually, the bizarrest idea put forward was the pyjamas of the man who died in hospital but who lived in 5a previously), and any of the other possibilities put forward before...anywhere else aside the places and belongings of the Mccann family.

[stephen25000]

Perhaps little to none, as the other way round, but I was referring to politically pressure Portuguese authorities could bring on their own investigators.

As for the UK using political influence on Portugal, or interfering in any way in this case is, I feel, nothing more that [ censored word ] territory.

On your second sentence, it is a matter of record the Mccanns initially had contact with the UK government. Now I ask myself would that have occurred with residents from a council estate or the equivalent, if a family from such an area had 'lost' their child ?

[Benice]

On your second sentence, it is a matter of record the Mccanns initially had contact with the UK government. Now I ask myself would that have occurred with residents from a council estate or the equivalent, if a family from such an area had 'lost' their child ?

I think you will find it was members of the UK government who phoned the McCanns - not the other way round.

What did you expect them to say?   ''Please don't ring again because we are not council estate residents'  ... or would you expect them to beg and plead for any assistance they could give them to help find Madeleine?

It comes to something -  when the fact that the McCanns live in private property is used as a stick to beat them with.

[stephen25000]

I think you will find it was members of the UK government who phoned the McCanns - not the other way round.

What did you expect them to say?   ''Please don't ring again because we are not council estate residents'  ... or would you expect them to beg and plead for any assistance they could give them to help find Madeleine?

It comes to something -  when the fact that the McCanns live in private property is used as a stick to beat them with.

Can you cite evidence that the conversations only took place from the government officials to the Mccanns and not vice versa ?

I note you are not answering the question in hand. Would council estate residents have been given the same help ?

[faithlilly]

I think it is far more likely to have been the other way round.  Given how much British holiday-makers contribute to the Portuguese economy, it would have been an unfortunate outcome to find that an abductor had taken a holiday-maker's child from her bed, particularly if it had turned out to be a Portuguese abductor.  Much better to put the emphasis of the investigation on the parents of the child - to imply (as happened in fact) that these British parents had done away with the British child.  Not Portugal's problem.

If political pressure was ever brought to bear, it is more likely to have come from Portugal than from Britain.

If a patsy was to be found wouldn't it have been better to focus on Murat ? He was already an arguido, had no high-powered legal support, as the McCanns did, and certainly no public support. He was also not quite Englsh yet not quite Portuguese therefore allowing both parts of the community to apportion the blame elsewhere.

No matter which way you slice it, if the PJ were looking for a scapegoat for this crime, rather than following  where the evidence led them, then logically the McCanns, with their legal and political support network, would have been the last people they would have considered to implicate

[ferryman]

Wrong !  Mr Grime stated precisely that Eddie didn't react to cadaverin, simply because the dog hadn't been trained with that synthetic molecule. If someone planted, perhaps an acte manqué of Mr McCann wishing to be caught after all, only at the morgue or in the cemetery.

I have computer problems just now and can flit in and out only sporadically.

Mr Grime says both dog react to blood, and only stuff Keela reacted to was sent to the FSS.

No clue what you're arguing about?

[AnneGuedes]

Did you not know the scent of decomposition, from dead pigs and humans, which is what the dog was trained on, is apparently made up of hundreds of chemical components, not two or three or four, that are found commonly in living human beings in a variety of ways...if it were the case that the cadaver dog alerted to these, it would be alerting left right and centre all the time, which would  render its deployment in seeking for remnant cadaver scent in crime scenes worthless, elementary my Dear Watson...no? Plus the fact, if it did do so, it failed spectacularly to alert to bad breath, body odour, period blood, urine, clipped toenails, chucked condoms, nappy contents, even rotting pizza! Oh and coconuts, of course, not to mention rotting pork chops, (and the bizarre idea that some woman could have aborted secretly in 5a, no, actually, the bizarrest idea put forward was the pyjamas of the man who died in hospital but who lived in 5a previously), and any of the other possibilities put forward before...anywhere else aside the places and belongings of the Mccann family.

You've posted that before, Redblossom, but some posters continue to consider exclusively cadaverin and putrescin in order to argue Eddie might have alerted to sperm molecules in the corner of the bedroom ! Why don't they satisfy themselves with the fact scent of death is universal i.e not identifiable ?

[AnneGuedes]

If a patsy was to be found wouldn't it have been better to focus on Murat ? He was already an arguido, had no high-powered legal support, as the McCanns did, and certainly no public support. He was also not quite Englsh yet not quite Portuguese therefore allowing both parts of the community to apportion the blame elsewhere.

No matter which way you slice it, if the PJ were looking for a scapegoat for this crime, rather than following  where the evidence led them, then logically the McCanns, with their legal and political support network, would have been the last people they would have considered to implicate

This is obvious, Faithlilly. Chinagirl seems to presume Portugal is a Banana Republic !

[Chinagirl]

This is obvious, Faithlilly. Chinagirl seems to presume Portugal is a Banana Republic !

Completely untrue - and insulting.  I would never refer to any country as such - even a genuine producer of bananas!

I've said it before - you need to get rid of the chip on your shoulder!

[Redblossom]

If it is not identifiable, then Eddie could not identify it. And what do you mean by 'the fact scent of death is universal'- makes no sense to me.

There is no valid testing of Eddie in the public domain that shows exactly what he reacts to.

Unless you have a cite....

IDENTIFIABLE BY HUMAN AND SCIENTIFIC MEANS...obviously, thats why DOGS are used to trace it! Doh

[Benice]

Can you cite evidence that the conversations only took place from the government officials to the Mccanns and not vice versa ?

I note you are not answering the question in hand. Would council estate residents have been given the same help ?

Well I can - from Kate's book but I suspect that will be decreed by your goodself to be 'inadmissable'.

I have no idea what the answer is to your other question - do you?   If they were British citizens then why not? I doubt if the MPs who did ring knew their address in Rothley or even cared about it at the time.  Why would they?