Was it in fact blood from a shaving cut that the dogs detected?

[Redblossom]

For information.  This is a new thread.

 

Good and  thank you and good night

[Carana]

I do not understand the reliance placed on finding blood from an unidentified person in a flat once used weeks before by a family and used for years before by a different set of families as it was a holiday let.

People bleed. Blood spots are probably everywhere. Finding blood without DNA is of no value to an investigation unless there is a pattern to it (which in this case there was not.)

Welcome to the board.

I agree.

[faithlilly]

I do not understand the reliance placed on finding blood from an unidentified person in a flat once used weeks before by a family and used for years before by a different set of families as it was a holiday let.

People bleed. Blood spots are probably everywhere. Finding blood without DNA is of no value to an investigation unless there is a pattern to it (which in this case there was not.)

Welcome Saepe.

The  absence of blood is more important than it's presence in this case. Both Eddie and Keela alert to blood from a living presence however when Keela doesn't alert and Eddie does, as in the bedroom, the only reasonable explanation is that he  has detected the scent of cadaver.

[south of the river]

I always thought that they found some sort of trace molecular substance / DNA  and couldn't even give a categorical report on what it was - ie saliva blood, skin etc let alone whose it was

The way the discussions go on sometimes about blood is reminiscent  of the  " blood Splatter " photo that every one got excited about that looked like some sort of gory murder scene from a horror flic with blood dripping between floorboards !!

This was a holiday rental that the dogs visited weeks after the event - even to the extent that other residents had stayed there. 

I mean if Maddy had been violently killed that had resulted in this type of blood splatter the case would have been fairly simple

[Carana]

Welcome Saepe.

The  absence of blood is more important than it's presence in this case. Both Eddie and Keela alert to blood from a living presence however when Keela doesn't alert and Eddie does, as in the bedroom, the only reasonable explanation is that he  has detected the scent of cadaver.

You forgot to mention that reacting to tissues used to clean up after sex are also acceptable interpretations of his reactions, according to Grime.

[Albertini]

You forgot to mention that reacting to tissues used to clean up after sex are also acceptable interpretations of his reactions, according to Grime.

From Martin Grime's rogatory:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

'Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids''
The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood. The components of blood are approximately:
Red cells 40-50%
Plasma 55% (of which 95% is water)
White cells
Platelets
DNA can only be removed from white cells.
This would suggest that, of the samples signalled by the dog looking for human blood, approximately 5% are available for DNA tests.

[Carana]

From Martin Grime's rogatory:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

That quote concerns Keela, my comment concerned Eddie (in the light of Faith's comment).

[Albertini]

What i find odd about the dogs reaction is the McCann's reaction to them.

I believe most parents of a missing child having been told that trained dogs detected blood and cadaver odour in the area where the child went missing would believe those findings and be devastated believing their child was dead.

However the McCann's went into full on legal defence mode and attempted to dismiss the dogs right away.

They got their legal defence in  first when you would imagine most parents would be of the opinion they were looking for a killer and the body of their child.

It always seems to be in cases of missing people that the family try to dismiss them when it is family members themselves who are guilty or suspected.

Funny that.

[AnneGuedes]

however there was one occasion when I cut myself shaving in the bathroom of the apartment. I would say that the cut bled for about 45 minutes and that it took some time until the cut stopped bleeding, during which period I walked around the apartment with paper tissues trying to stop the blood.

(Paul Anthony Gordon)

Mr Gordon has either a strange perception of time or is haemophiliac.

[AnneGuedes]

Where did you get that idea from?

Logic. But there's no proof that scent comes from the person who bled nor comes from the person who disappeared from the flat.

[AnneGuedes]

You forgot to mention that reacting to tissues used to clean up after sex are also acceptable interpretations of his reactions, according to Grime.

This fixed idea on sex tissues is amazing, Carana. There was no tissue of any kind in the bedroom corner. But walls and porous painting on the wall.
I can't understand why people should have sex and tissues only in this flat.

[DCI]

Or has low vitamin K, or is on anti-coagulents such as warfarin or heparin.

People on both sides of this argument always assume that they have enough information to make a valid decision.

If Mr Gordon was on Warfarin, then he would easily have bled for 45 minutes.

It is little missed possibilities like this that lead to people claiming their beliefs as knowledge- and this happens frequently.

The same applies to Aspirin, SS. Bruise easy, bleed plenty, I know from being on Aspirin for years.

[Carana]

This fixed idea on sex tissues is amazing, Carana. There was no tissue of any kind in the bedroom corner. But walls and porous painting on the wall.
I can't understand why people should have sex and tissues only in this flat.

The fixed idea amongst the initial PJ team that Eddie only reacted to cadavers has always amazed me. Some people now reluctantly agree that he also reacts to blood, but still have trouble with the idea that he can react to other odours of decomposition, which may not involve a cadaver.

[faithlilly]

Let me guess your reply:

Eddie displays a behaviour
It is interpreted by a handler
Keela displays a behaviour
It is interpreted by a handler
The two behaviours together have in the past indicated cadaver odour
Therefore there was cadaver odour present.

Can you see the flaw in the logic?

Tell me  Saepe have you been 'flown'  in specifically, a la Gerry McCann, to perhaps help 'neutralise' some rather tricky points as your appearance here does seem rather more than 'fortuitous ?

[Victoria]

Let me guess your reply:

Eddie displays a behaviour
It is interpreted by a handler
Keela displays a behaviour
It is interpreted by a handler
The two behaviours together have in the past indicated cadaver odour
Therefore there was cadaver odour present.

Can you see the flaw in the logic?

Good post.

Even setting the leap in logic aside, the sniffer dog acolytes still have to face up to the rather inconvenient (for them!) fact that samples were taken from places where the dogs indicated, and after being subjected to state of the art testing, the samples provided nothing of evidential value. I do wonder whether, if it wasn't for the dogs, Amaral would have quite so many sycophantic followers. I'd guess not, which is quite disturbing, when you think about it.