The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.

[Anna]

That list is only of items found in the living area.

Thank you Pegasus

[pathfinder73]

That list is only of items found in the living area.

The pants and red top are not seen in the living room. They must be already packed.

[pegasus]

The pants and red top are not seen in the living room. They must be already packed.

Good at last someone is looking in the living area footage for the 26 items listed and photographed as coming from the living area.
The items on the dining table (pillows, pillow cases, towels) are the easiest to find IMO.
IIRC there is packing commencing at the end of the villa footage, but not at the stage of Eddie's alerts.

[Anna]

Well What evidence do we have.......................................
The supposed cadaver scent from 5A wardrobe and the contents
inconclusive blood on tiles and curtains in lounge which was apparently missed by CSI
No Scent in the apartment that the McCanns moved too, after the disappearance (despite the probability of X contamination of articles in that Apt)
No scent in Villa. Cuddlecat is a ?
Scent in the gym
(A blood dog can still scent blood after many washes and the scent would be X contaminated during the washing,w so any small bleed would be enough) Keela was one of the best!.
===========================================
So The scent was found in the Gym and 5A, where others were involved in the investigations, but none in the Apt that the Mccanns stayed in after the disappearance.

How did that blood get missed by CSI and where did the supposed cadaver scent come from?????

I can only find three possible answers.................................................

1.Contamination by other traffic or other occupants (after the disappearance) in 5A and Gym
2.Doggie fault
3.Something more sinister.

[Teecah]

Forensic line-ups.

If you mean controlled experiments, probably the most famous is the Hamburg carpet-square experiment, where a very high level of accuracy (well over 90%) was achieved, although errors were made.

But often missed is the way that experiment is most relevant to dog-deployment in PdL; it (the Hamburg carpet-square experiment) was driven by the principle of cross-contamination. 

The bodies of two dead men were covered in cotton blankets to simulate thin layers of clothing and also to prevent direct contact of the carpet-squares with the bodies.  Then the carpet squares were passed underneath and close to (but not touching) the buttock of either man and held in that position for lengths of time that varied.

Every carpet-square thus positioned (for whatever length of time) was contaminated with a death scent by cross-contamination.

Indeed, Grime himself was asked about cross-contamination in his rogatory interview and replied that it (cross-contamination) is immediate.

Why, then, was there wholesale disregard of the principle in Grime's deployment of Eddie in PdL?

ETA: Welcome to the board, Tee

Thank you, I don't have much time to post and it sometimes looks as if you all know each other so well which makes me shy to jump in.

I'm sorry if I was off topic but I was referring to scent line ups.
There's people who've been convicted (burglary, murder) on the results of it.
I find this an interesting article which I've found this week when I was looking for information about the reliability of scent dogs.
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/22698_displayArticle.aspx

Re the bolded part.
If that's true and if Eddie was indeed alerting to cadaver odour when he alerted to the clothes, can somebody please explain to me why he didn't alert to the other clothes, especially the clothes which were in that same box?

[Anna]

Thank you, I don't have much time to post and it sometimes looks as if you all know each other so well which makes me shy to jump in.

I'm sorry if I was off topic but I was referring to scent line ups.
There's people who've been convicted (burglary, murder) on the results of it.
I find this an interesting article which I've found this week when I was looking for information about the reliability of scent dogs.
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/22698_displayArticle.aspx

Re the bolded part.
If that's true and if Eddie was indeed alerting to cadaver odour when he alerted to the clothes, can somebody please explain to me why he didn't alert to the other clothes, especially the clothes which were in that same box?

Welcome Tee, That is a very interesting article.
  As for the clothes alerted to in the Gym....I believe they did all come from one box, but if I am wrong, I am sure someone will put it right shortly. Have you watched the video?

[pathfinder73]

Thank you, I don't have much time to post and it sometimes looks as if you all know each other so well which makes me shy to jump in.

I'm sorry if I was off topic but I was referring to scent line ups.
There's people who've been convicted (burglary, murder) on the results of it.
I find this an interesting article which I've found this week when I was looking for information about the reliability of scent dogs.
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/22698_displayArticle.aspx

Re the bolded part.
If that's true and if Eddie was indeed alerting to cadaver odour when he alerted to the clothes, can somebody please explain to me why he didn't alert to the other clothes, especially the clothes which were in that same box?

Eddie only bark alerts when he finds the strongest scent e.g. Kate's cadaver pants. He is trained to find the source/strongest scent before alerting. It's the reason the clothes are separated. He can get his nose in close on each item to alert which clothes has the strongest scent. IMO pants were in contact with a cadaver.

[ferryman]

Eddie only bark alerts when he finds the strongest scent e.g. Kate's cadaver pants. He is trained to find the source/strongest scent before alerting. It's the reason the clothes are separated. He can get his nose in close on each item to alert which clothes has the strongest scent. IMO pants were in contact with a cadaver.

You clearly don't believe Grime, then.

I don't altogether blame you ...

[pathfinder73]

You clearly don't believe Grime, then.

I don't altogether blame you ...

Grime is covering himself. You don't want to know what he really thinks most probably.

[John]

Eddie only bark alerts when he finds the strongest scent e.g. Kate's cadaver pants. He is trained to find the source/strongest scent before alerting. It's the reason the clothes are separated. He can get his nose in close on each item to alert which clothes has the strongest scent. IMO pants were in contact with a cadaver.

This is something I have come to realise which really does put the cat among the pigeons. Eddie only alerts when he has found what he was trained to find, he found it in apartment 5a and he found it in the gym and the underground car park. 

[John]

Grime is covering himself. You don't want to know what he really thinks most probably.

I know exactly what he thinks but can't post it here...at least not now.   

[pathfinder73]

This is something I have come to realise which really does put the cat among the pigeons. Eddie only alerts when he has found what he was trained to find, he found it in apartment 5a and he found it in the gym and the underground car park. 

I'm learning all the time as well. It does make sense for him to locate the source or strongest scent first before bark alerting. As you say, with alerts in different places it doesn't look good.

[sadie]

This is something I have come to realise which really does put the cat among the pigeons. Eddie only alerts when he has found what he was trained to find, he found it in apartment 5a and he found it in the gym and the underground car park.

Yep he alerts to dried blood, cadavar odour etc and also bodily fluids.

Do you know which he was alerting to, John?

[Teecah]

Welcome Tee, That is a very interesting article.
  As for the clothes alerted to in the Gym....I believe they did all come from one box, but if I am wrong, I am sure someone will put it right shortly. Have you watched the video?

Yes they all came from one box. I watched the video years ago and checked today.
First he passes most of the clothes without stopping or alerting to anything. When he arrived at the pillows he was called back, next he runs to the "Children's shorts, blue" (7) and starts barking, then to "A childrens T-Shirt, red" (3) then to "One pair of woman's trousers" (1) and next to what I think is the "One woman's top, white" (2)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm

[gilet]

Eddie only bark alerts when he finds the strongest scent e.g. Kate's cadaver pants. He is trained to find the source/strongest scent before alerting. It's the reason the clothes are separated. He can get his nose in close on each item to alert which clothes has the strongest scent. IMO pants were in contact with a cadaver.

He alerted to three pieces of clothing. Why are you stating that the trousers were the prime source of scent?

The problem is that there is no way (no matter what your opinion may be) that anyone can actually demonstrate that the trousers or the other two items of clothing came into direct contact with a cadaver.

The fact is that these clothes, as Teecah has reminded us, were bundled into a single box with the strong likelihood that cross-contamination occurred between them. The reason in the UK that potential evidence is bagged separately is to prevent that happening. We are told in the reports that the PJ were dependent on the advice of Harrison and Grime for the conduct of the geophysical and dog searches and I am appalled that neither of them questioned such a basic flaw in procedure.

Any of these three items of clothing could have previously been contaminated without direct contact to any cadaver. Unless you can provide some direct link between the clothing and a cadaver then it is mere supposition that there was direct contact.