Author Topic: Little Moroccan girl Bushra Binhisa mistaken for Madeleine McCann revisited.  (Read 98626 times)

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icabodcrane

  • Guest
Posts were only removed for personal comments and attacks, Anne. If someone attacked you, I would do (and have done) the same.

If you do not feel that this thread has any value, by all means ignore it!

'Ignoring'  this thread is a poor option to offer

Members are pointing out why they feel it has no value and you should offer a reason for thinking it  has

How,  for instance,  do you suggest members could respond to sadie's taunts of them being  "not brave enough"  and  "too chicken"  to answer the unanswerable question she poses  ? 

How,  exactly,  are we meant to determine if the 'proportions'  on the grainy screen grab of little Bushra are the same as those on her photograph  ?    (  come to think of it,  how did sadie do that  ?  ...  what scientific method  did  she  use when coming to the conclusion that the little girl is  DEFINATELY NOT  bushra  ?  )

Since you have taken the position of defending the 'value' this thread  (  and sadie's theory on Bushra )  perhaps you'd like to address the main thrust of it

...  that the grainy screen grab  is not Bushra at all  ... that it is probably Madeleine ...  and the person carrying her is not her mother,  it is a bloke in a pair of comedy boobs with blue marker pen drawn round the nipples 

Are you defending the  'value'  of that observation    ?   ...  or are you merely defending the right of any member to post any insupportable nonsense  regardless of how much  it diminishes the credibility of the forum  ?

Offline sadie


Do the proportions show well enough, though?

When the facial features seem blurred and spread, how is it possible to compare proportions?

How do you ascertain where a feature........say the nose or eye.... ends,  or how close together eyes are or the depth of the upper lip?

Doesn`t the i.d. rather depend on being able to compare where features start and end on the face?

Edited to add...........The technology is available to make these comparisons. Why wouldn`t it have been done already, professionally?
Yes they did show well enough to the trained eye.  To someone like me .... and I am not alone .... who often draws portraits by shadows alone, dark and light areas.... no lines.

I can tell you unequivically that the girl on the wo/mans back is NOT Bushra.  The proportions are totally wrong ... as are cetain highlights on the face.

And I can also tell you that the proportions are remarkably like Madeleines , but I cannot be so certain about her because many children might have the same eye to nose and relative upper lip proprtions as Madeleine. 

But the little girl aint Bushra.

Offline sadie

You will find that the real image of Bushra was doctored Sadie, guess by whom?   A clue...  Barcelona
If you are intimating that metodo 3 (or whatever their name is) deliberately presented that photo, that is a serious accusation, John.

Can you back it up please?

Offline Carew

Yes they did show well enough to the trained eye.  To someone like me .... and I am not alone .... who often draws portraits by shadows alone, dark and light areas.... no lines.

I can tell you unequivically that the girl on the wo/mans back is NOT Bushra.  The proportions are totally wrong ... as are cetain highlights on the face.

And I can also tell you that the proportions are remarkably like Madeleines , but I cannot be so certain about her because many children might have the same eye to nose and relative upper lip proprtions as Madeleine. 

But the little girl aint Bushra.

Shadows and light and dark areas and highlights which exist on a pin-sharp image are not the same as shadows/light/dark areas caused by smudging and blurring due to lack of definition.

Do you have a report/opinion from any technological investigation?

You seem so certain that the little girl is not Bushra.   

Offline Anna

Its a shame that the frame from the video film is so distorted. My eyes are not that good and I do not have Sadie's artistic training, but it does appear that the beautiful little Bushra girl has a shorter space between her nose and top lip, she also has more of a downturn to her eyes and less pink lips, than the video clip, which is not a good image. It would be good if someone could edit the image to be clearer, but I think it has been tried.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline sadie

Its a shame that the frame from the video film is so distorted. My eyes are not that good and I do not have Sadie's artistic training, but it does appear that the beautiful little Bushra girl has a shorter space between her nose and top lip, she also has more of a downturn to her eyes and less pink lips, than the video clip, which is not a good image. It would be good if someone could edit the image to be clearer, but I think it has been tried.
I dont think it is a video clip Anna.  I think it is a much magnified part of a longish distance photograph.  If it were a video clip, then there would be other images and there are no other images !

Thankyou for giving Madeleine the couple of minutes needed to compare the  proportions.  No-one else that I have noticed has bothered. 

Bushra is such a beautiful little girl, isn't she?  Madeleine too.

stephen25000

  • Guest
There appears to be no scientific basis or logic in thinking the image is anything more than a small girl with her family.

Wishful thinking is one thing, trying to make deductions from a partially hidden face and an out of focus image is another.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 06:14:21 PM by stephen25000 »

Offline Sherlock Holmes

'Ignoring'  this thread is a poor option to offer

Members are pointing out why they feel it has no value and you should offer a reason for thinking it  has

How,  for instance,  do you suggest members could respond to sadie's taunts of them being  "not brave enough"  and  "too chicken"  to answer the unanswerable question she poses  ? 

How,  exactly,  are we meant to determine if the 'proportions'  on the grainy screen grab of little Bushra are the same as those on her photograph  ?    (  come to think of it,  how did sadie do that  ?  ...  what scientific method  did  she  use when coming to the conclusion that the little girl is  DEFINATELY NOT  bushra  ?  )

Since you have taken the position of defending the 'value' this thread  (  and sadie's theory on Bushra )  perhaps you'd like to address the main thrust of it

...  that the grainy screen grab  is not Bushra at all  ... that it is probably Madeleine ...  and the person carrying her is not her mother,  it is a bloke in a pair of comedy boobs with blue marker pen drawn round the nipples 

Are you defending the  'value'  of that observation    ?   ...  or are you merely defending the right of any member to post any insupportable nonsense  regardless of how much  it diminishes the credibility of the forum  ?

I think you raise some very good points, icabod, and it is important to address them. We do want discussion to be meaningful and valid.

As far as what you describe as 'taunts' go, or comments or posts one feels are of little value, one is under no obligation to respond to them. In fact I believe the less emotive and personal post are, the better. That is just my opinion.

As to the content of this particular thread and how I myself should respond, I personally do not know enough about proportions and so on as to be able to make a meaningful comment.  I do know that Sadie is qualified in technical drawing and art, and was a professional engineer for many years, hence her interest in the photographs. I myself know nothing of these subjects and don't feel that I have to put in comments simply to 'justify' the thread.

I respect you very much for wanting quality discussions and threads, icabod, and for stating the fact. I am of the same mind. Bear in mind, too, however, that we all have certain topics that we focus on because of our individual knowledge or interests, which are varied. We all  bring something different here and that is partly what makes this forum so interesting. There is plenty variety in thread topics also, and so I don't think that we should all feel able or obligated to have to comment on things we are not interested in or don't know about, just because they are there.

I personally did not make any postings whatsoever, for example, on that very long thread of Dhingra's, good as the thing was, because my scientific knowledge is very minimal and I was not able to fully appreciate the discussion.

And I was not being flippant when I suggested that Anne ignore this thread. Perhaps a better way of putting it would be to say that we should focus on the positive and build  up the threads we believe to be meaningful and which hopefully will lead us somewhere in this case. It is 'survival of the fittest' as far as these threads are concerned, and we can either attempt to create substantial discussion in a given thread, or if that does not work, move on.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 06:22:39 PM by Sherlock Holmes »

Offline sadie

Its a shame that the frame from the video film is so distorted. My eyes are not that good and I do not have Sadie's artistic training, but it does appear that the beautiful little Bushra girl has a shorter space between her nose and top lip, she also has more of a downturn to her eyes and less pink lips, than the video clip, which is not a good image. It would be good if someone could edit the image to be clearer, but I think it has been tried.
Additionally Anna, the little girl has the alert look that Madeleine has ... an interest in everything.

Bushra is stunningly beautiful but she has a reticent look. 
She also is too bonny to fit behind the carriers back.  She rides higher too.

Did you notice?

Offline Carew

I dont think it is a video clip Anna.  I think it is a much magnified part of a longish distance photograph.  If it were a video clip, then there would be other images and there are no other images !

Thankyou for giving Madeleine the couple of minutes needed to compare the  proportions.  No-one else that I have noticed has bothered. 

Bushra is such a beautiful little girl, isn't she?  Madeleine too.

That stance is rather insulting.... There is no purpose served by comparing the incomparable, simply to satisfy your sense of entitlement.

The "upper lip distance" issue could be explained by the pulled down top- lip expression quite common in small children...........as is the pursed lip pout, which shortens the upper lip; similarly common.

It is only by comparing images of similar sharpness and facial expression that any judgement is possible i.m.o.




Offline sadie

That stance is rather insulting.... There is no purpose served by comparing the incomparable, simply to satisfy your sense of entitlement.

The "upper lip distance" issue could be explained by the pulled down top- lip expression quite common in small children...........as is the pursed lip pout, which shortens the upper lip; similarly common.

It is only by comparing images of similar sharpness and facial expression that any judgement is possible i.m.o.
Well Anna had a go at it, even if you are finding excuses not to.

Offline sadie

That stance is rather insulting.... There is no purpose served by comparing the incomparable, simply to satisfy your sense of entitlement.

The "upper lip distance" issue could be explained by the pulled down top- lip expression quite common in small children...........as is the pursed lip pout, which shortens the upper lip; similarly common.

It is only by comparing images of similar sharpness and facial expression that any judgement is possible i.m.o.
I am sorry Carew, I just noticed this.  I think that you are grasping at straws but at least you are in agreement about the length of the upper lip.

You have looked, my mistake

Offline Carew

Well Anna had a go at it, even if you are finding excuses not to.

No...........I gave a reason as to why the upper lip proportion you gave as a justification for your view is not valid.

I must have made a comparison to make the point.......facial expressions alter proportions.








Offline Carew

I am sorry Carew, I just noticed this.  I think that you are grasping at straws but at least you are in agreement about the length of the upper lip.

You have looked, my mistake

Our posts crossed, I think.

Thanks......No problem.

It isn`t straw clutching, though.........it`s lack of evidence.
There are simply too many variables to make an accurate comparison.


Offline sadie

No...........I gave a reason as to why the upper lip proportion you gave as a justification for your view is not valid.

I must have made a comparison to make the point.......facial expressions alter proportions.
I will agree with that, facial expressions DO alter proportions.
But the highlights and shadows give absolutely NO indication of anything other than an alert but relaxed face, so it seems facial expressions such as you mention can be safely ruled out