Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[stephen25000]

People can read your post for themselves.

It is a strong theme in the post I refer to that you believe it is a shame that people are not, as you put it ATTACKING the McCanns.

Just because others are not prepared to join with you in such attacks does not mean that others are not searching for the truth.

To find the truth you must be open to all possibilities.

Clearly from your final comments above you have closed your mind to other possibilities and have decided on the guilt of the parents even though absolutely no proof exists of any such guilt.

I am afraid that you will never persuade me to close my mind in the way you have done and to behave effectively like a mini lynch-mob as you are doing; haranguing the parents of a missing child as if they are guilty of a crime when no evidence of any such guilt exists. 

Shame on you.

On the contrary, it is you who has a closed mind.

Your mindset is blatantly obvious and designed to deceive.

It is not lynch mob mentality to state the obvious................

The three children should never have been left in an unlocked apartment, whilst their parents placed their socializing first and foremost.

It is you who need to GET REAL and place the blame for Madeleine's disappearance where it lasts, at the hands of her parents and not some made up abductor(s), for which there is no proof, let alone forensic evidence.

SHAME ON YOU

[gilet]

At what point did the expert express reservations?

He didn't. He stated "That demeanour changes when Geoffrey sees Jake in uniform. Then he's in work mode"

And as I pointed out earlier, that is the dogs first cue that he's about to 'work'. Should that initial cue be missing, do you really think that he wouldn't obey a command?

You actually think it's possible that a police dog would fail to apprehend a criminal on command because his trainer was wearing a different jumper?


Unfortunately everything you have written about the dogs and their alerts is now coloured for me by the fact that you seem to be working under the misapprehension that dogs are people.

You have no understanding of how dogs think at all do you? You can't have to believe for even a nano second that a uniform will affect the relationship between a dog and its owner.

Clearly we disagree. I think the way a dog reacts is very pertinent. This expert handler indicates that a dog is more likely to be in "work mode" when the uniform is recognised is irrelevant to you. No problem. But I repeat I prefer the expert opinion to that of non-experts such as yourself.

This is not about apprehending criminals in a chase but about a situation which Grime himself as referred to as being like a game for his dogs. It is a game in which they seek reward for their actions.

[gilet]

On the contrary, it is you who has a closed mind.

Your mindset is blatantly obvious and designed to deceive.

It is not lynch mob mentality to state the obvious................

The three children should never have been left in an unlocked apartment, whilst their parents placed their socializing first and foremost.

It is you who need to GET REAL and place the blame for Madeleine's disappearance where it lasts, at the hands of her parents and not some made up abductor(s), for which there is no proof, let alone forensic evidence.

SHAME ON YOU

I will let the readers look back at your posts and see who is open-minded or not. Your previous post made it very clear that you have already declared the McCanns guilty in relation to the cadaver dog alerts. No more need be said other than that there is no evidence of any crime by the McCanns. Your obsession flies in the face of the Official Portuguese Archival Report.

Now back to the topic at hand.

[Alfred R Jones]

Now back to the topic at hand.

that's a good idea.

Any thoughts on my post above anyone?

[stephen25000]

I will let the readers look back at your posts and see who is open-minded or not. Your previous post made it very clear that you have already declared the McCanns guilty in relation to the cadaver dog alerts. No more need be said other than that there is no evidence of any crime by the McCanns. Your obsession flies in the face of the Official Portuguese Archival Report.

Now back to the topic at hand.

Posters will have read your posts as well.

The case was shelved due to lack of evidence. No more than that.

I notice that you don't refer to the incompetence of leaving three small children the way they did REPEATEDLY.

YES, posters will read your posts and make their own conclusions. DON'T KID YOUR SELF OTHERWISE.

As for the dogs, the forensic evidence was inconclusive.

I suggest you pay attention to what is written and not your bias in favour of the mccanns.

[icabodcrane]

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion. It is, however, based on dog alerts which may or may not have the slightest bearing on the disappearance.

Till you provide me with one tiny fragment of evidence that the alerts relate to Madeleine or even that the alerts are actually reliable then I believe that I am also perfectly entitled to my own opinion which clearly differs from yours.

Your entire reasoning is based on alerts which have never been shown to relate to the missing child or even to cadaver scent at all. Even Grime goes no further than saying that the alerts are "suggestive".

It appears that those "suggestive" alerts are enough to sway you.

I prefer to remain more open-minded and await actual evidence.

Just to add. Your third paragraph seems to suggest that no other option but the one you support is even valid. That is simply untrue.

I was giving my opinion on what  the   'most obvious' explanation for a cadaver dog alerting in an apartment where a missing child was last seen, is 

...   that the missing child died there and the dog picked up the scent

Now you may present   'other'  explanations for the cadaver dog alerting   ...   you may even argue that those explanations are  'equally valid'   (  although how you are measuring 'validity'  at all is rather baffling  )   ...  but what you cannot do,  is present an alternative explanation that is  more obvious  than the stark logic of the cadaver  dog alerting because he picked up the scent of the dead body of the missing child in  the exact location where she was last seen alive

[Mr Gray]

Posters will have read your posts as well.

The case was shelved due to lack of evidence. No more than that.

I notice that you don't refer to the incompetence of leaving three small children the way they did REPEATEDLY.

YES, posters will read your posts and make their own conclusions. DON'T KID YOUR SELF OTHERWISE.

As for the dogs, the forensic evidence was inconclusive.

I suggest you pay attention to what is written and not your bias in favour of the mccanns.

You disrupt every thread with  the same posts...we need to start reporting you for off topic posting

[stephen25000]

You disrupt every thread with  the same posts...we need to start reporting you for off topic posting

Try not to be a hypocrite davel.

If someone is going to criticize me, they must expect it in return.

Can't gilet stick up for herself ?

[Mr Gray]

Try not to be a hypocrite davel.

If someone is going to criticize me, they must expect it in return.

Can't gilet stick up for herself ?

On every thread you post about no evidence for abduction and criticise the parents for their childcare. this thread is about dog reliability

[Cariad]

Clearly we disagree. I think the way a dog reacts is very pertinent. This expert handler indicates that a dog is more likely to be in "work mode" when the uniform is recognised is irrelevant to you. No problem. But I repeat I prefer the expert opinion to that of non-experts such as yourself.

This is not about apprehending criminals in a chase but about a situation which Grime himself as referred to as being like a game for his dogs. It is a game in which they seek reward for their actions.

He did not at any point say that a dog is more likely to be in "work mode" when the uniform is recognised!

That is not what he said!!!

The line is: "That demeanour changes when Geoffrey sees Jake in uniform. Then he's in work mode"


As I have patiently explained to you, that is simply the first cue the dog has that 'work' is on. Should that cue be missing for whatever reason, the dog will react to the next cue.

You have clearly misunderstood.

Ok, Since you seem to believe that dogs think like people, try this one:

Fred comes home from work and his wife is in sexy underwear, laying provocatively on the bed. Fred knows he's getting lucky.

Fred comes home from work, his wife is doing the dishes. They go to bed. She whispers in his ear "fancy a bit of slap and tickle?"

In your analogy Fred doesn't react cause his wife hasn't got her gear on.

Also, the dog who apprehends the criminal doesn't know that he's apprehending a criminal any more that the EVRD knows he's picked up cadaver scent. They are both playing games.

Go to the park and watch a dog playing fetch. That is watch a police dog is doing. Then hide a treat somewhere and tell the dog to go find, that's what the EVRD is doing.

Same as if I ran a hundred metres and Jessica Ennis runs a hundred metres. We're both running. It's just that through a combination of natural ability and training, she is much, much better than I am at it.

[ferryman]

Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

Well, not always as the case of Thomas Quick proves.  He was someone who confessed to a string of murders leading detectives to the places where he said the murders were committed.  A police dog called Zampo was used to build a case against him.

"During the course of the investigation, Quick mentioned at least 24 different places in Sweden and Norway where he had committed murders, handled dead bodies or left body parts," says Leyla Belle Drake, who was Hannes Råstam's literary agent. "Zampo marked for human remains 45 times at those 24 locations. Not a single trace of blood or body parts was ever found."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/20/thomas-quick-bergwall-sweden-murder

The reason why no trace of blood or body parts was found in those locations despite the positive alerts was because Thomas Quick didn't actually commit any of the murders. 

Why, I wonder, did the dog alert 45 times at those 24 locations if no murders had taken place there?  Perhaps one of the dog experts on this forum could explain...

Interesting.

Handler bias would seem to be the most obvious explanation.

[gilet]

He did not at any point say that a dog is more likely to be in "work mode" when the uniform is recognised!

That is not what he said!!!

The line is: "That demeanour changes when Geoffrey sees Jake in uniform. Then he's in work mode"


As I have patiently explained to you, that is simply the first cue the dog has that 'work' is on. Should that cue be missing for whatever reason, the dog will react to the next cue.

You have clearly misunderstood.

Ok, Since you seem to believe that dogs think like people, try this one:

Fred comes home from work and his wife is in sexy underwear, laying provocatively on the bed. Fred knows he's getting lucky.

Fred comes home from work, his wife is doing the dishes. They go to bed. She whispers in his ear "fancy a bit of slap and tickle?"

In your analogy Fred doesn't react cause his wife hasn't got her gear on.

Also, the dog who apprehends the criminal doesn't know that he's apprehending a criminal any more that the EVRD knows he's picked up cadaver scent. They are both playing games.

Go to the park and watch a dog playing fetch. That is watch a police dog is doing. Then hide a treat somewhere and tell the dog to go find, that's what the EVRD is doing.

Same as if I ran a hundred metres and Jessica Ennis runs a hundred metres. We're both running. It's just that through a combination of natural ability and training, she is much, much better than I am at it.

Sorry, the clear intention of that phrasing is that when the handler is not in uniform, then the dog is not in work mode.

[gilet]

Try not to be a hypocrite davel.

If someone is going to criticize me, they must expect it in return.

Can't gilet stick up for herself ?

I have stuck up for myself. Please read back and be enlightened.

Now back on topic, don't you have any comments about the issues of this topic, comments about posts 599 or 618 perhaps which are very relevant unlike your posts?

[Cariad]

Sorry, the clear intention of that phrasing is that when the handler is not in uniform, then the dog is not in work mode.

I literally just face palmed!

I'm going to ask you a yes or no question ok?

Do you think a highly trained dog would fail to follow a command because his/ her trainer is wearing a tutu and fairy wings?

[Mr Gray]

I literally just face palmed!

I'm going to ask you a yes or no question ok?

Do you think a highly trained dog would fail to follow a command because his/ her trainer is wearing a tutu and fairy wings?

Are we talking about Fred or a dog