Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[Anna]

No he barks at cadaver scent and blood. Other fluids only come into it if mixed with blood.

Thank you Buzz.....That is what I thought, but there seems to a difference of opinion at times. So the flowerbed could have been blood too or blood meal fertilizer(obtained from slaughter houses)  sometimes said to deter rats too.

[Carana]

No he barks at cadaver scent and blood. Other fluids only come into it if mixed with blood.

Grime stated that about Keela. He did not state that about Eddie.

[Anna]

Grime stated that about Keela. He did not state that about Eddie.

So are you saying that Eddie only barked at Cadaver scent?

[ferryman]

No he barks at cadaver scent and blood. Other fluids only come into it if mixed with blood.

Far from convinced that's true.

It is true that dogs trained on human remains (exclusively) won't react to psuedo-scents, because the primary constituent of these (manufactured) scents is cadaverine, which is too narrow a scent-range for dogs trained on human cadavers.

And Grime says Eddie wont (or wouldn't! RIP) react to pseudo-scents.

So what were these sample pair of pants "laced" with that Eddie was tasked to find in the Sam Parker case?

And what was this "clean-up after sex" scent Eddie alerted to in Jersey?

A constituent of semen is cadaverine.

[Carana]

So are you saying that Eddie only barked at Cadaver scent?

No. The only dog that Grime said would not react to any other substance unless it was mixed with blood was Keela. He never said that Eddie wouldn't. He also said that Keela wouldn't react unless there was a physical trace of blood, but he didn't say that about Eddie, either.

[Anna]

No. The only dog that Grime said would not react to any other substance unless it was mixed with blood was Keela. He never said that Eddie wouldn't. He also said that Keela wouldn't react unless there was a physical trace of blood, but he didn't say that about Eddie, either.

Thanks Carana,
I do believe that Eddie was originally trained as a blood dog(Like Keela) but then he was trained as a cadaver, so could alert to either blood or cadaver or in fact anything containing blood or skin cells, which is many things possibly found in 5A, including nappies.

[Carana]

Thanks Carana,
I do believe that Eddie was originally trained as a blood dog(Like Keela) but then he was trained as a cadaver, so could alert to either blood or cadaver or in fact anything containing blood or skin cells, which is many things possibly found in 5A, including nappies.

He wasn't asked in his rog, and I'm only going by what he's stated.

It would seem unlikely that he'd react to skin cells on their own, I would have thought, but mixed with sweat, there would be some kind of decomp process going on. Skin cells as dust on the floor don't pong, but skin cells mixed with sweat in a cast, for example, sure as hell do.

[ferryman]

Without getting into graphic detail is it possibly minute traces of blood mixed?

In the sample pair of pants?

I doubt it ...

[Anna]

Far from convinced that's true.

It is true that dogs trained on human remains (exclusively) won't react to psuedo-scents, because the primary constituent of these (manufactured) scents is cadaverine, which is too narrow a scent-range for dogs trained on human cadavers.

And Grime says Eddie wont (or wouldn't! RIP) react to pseudo-scents.

So what were these sample pair of pants "laced" with that Eddie was tasked to find in the Sam Parker case?

And what was this "clean-up after sex" scent Eddie alerted to in Jersey?

A constituent of semen is cadaverine.

So Eddie could have been alerting to many things really ? Pseudo scent?
 The film below shows how he uses skeletal remains to train the dog 



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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3694.msg143732#msg143732

[pathfinder73]

Which is precisely what Grime tells us.     

Also as the McCanns moved into the Payne's apartment during the night of the 4th May - and stayed there until they were given another apartment - then as they were wearing the same clothes they'd worn on the evening of the 3rd, one would think that if there was any 'contaminant' on them - it would have been transferred - and  Eddie would have alerted in the Payne's  apartment too.

Why? You don't know what Kate (6-7pm) or Gerry was wearing earlier and I didn't see his blue jeans, button trousers or what looks like a black jacket on the sofa in the dogs footage.

[Carana]

So Eddie could have been alerting to many things really ? Pseudo scent?
 The film below shows how he uses skeletal remains to train the dog 



page 10
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3694.msg143732#msg143732

I don't think so. Grime said that Eddie wasn't interested in pseudo scent, but he doesn't specify which type.

The first compounds to be released wouldn't necessarily be those in the pseudo ones anyway, from what I've been able to glean.

[Anna]

I don't think so. Grime said that Eddie wasn't interested in pseudo scent, but he doesn't specify which type.

The first compounds to be released wouldn't necessarily be those in the pseudo ones anyway, from what I've been able to glean.

Sorry Carana. I worded that badly. Ferryman wondered if he M Grimes had used Pseudo scent on some pants that the dog had to sniff and track a victim. I was asking (Pseudo scent?) in reply and added the film of training with skeletal remains.

[ferryman]

So Eddie could have been alerting to many things really ? Pseudo scent?
 The film below shows how he uses skeletal remains to train the dog 



page 10
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3694.msg143732#msg143732

Sadly, my speakers have packed up.

But here is the quote of Eddie alerting to the "sample pair of pants":

We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom.

That was the Sam Parker case ...

http://www.scentevidence.com/2009/07/dog-debate-at-center-of-murder-case.html

[Carana]

Sorry Carana. I worded that badly. Ferryman wondered if he M Grimes had used Pseudo scent on some pants that the dog had to sniff and track a victim. I was asking (Pseudo scent?) in reply and added the film of training with skeletal remains.

No probs, Anna.

I'll hunt again (I've already posted links somewhere here), but there are only a few compounds released initially. Some studies say shortly after death, others say a few days after. Without knowing exactly what compounds these are, and which may also be present as a result of everyday life, and how long they could stay in a much-aired flat (bar the week prior to the inspection) in the absence of any tangible material that the molecules could have clung to is a mystery.

[Anna]

Sadly, my speakers have packed up.

But here is the quote of Eddie alerting to the "sample pair of pants":

We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom.

That was the Sam Parker case ...

http://www.scentevidence.com/2009/07/dog-debate-at-center-of-murder-case.html

Thankyou FM, A very interesting observation indeed