Are Victim Detection and Forensic Evidence Search Dogs reliable?

[Mr Gray]

So why have the authorities identified where the odour came from?

what authorities

[gilet]

So why have the authorities identified where the odour came from?

No authorities of any kind have ever done any such thing. You are inventing things.

Indeed, Martin Grime was very clear on video when he stated that he could not be certain that the alerts by the dog related (in Apartment 5A) to the actual location of the alert. He made it clear that scents can gather in a specific location due to air currents and that the scent may have originated in another location not even in the same room.

[gilet]

Lets have Mr Grime's full summary in respect of the dog deployments in Praia da Luz.

SUMMARY

 The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating
 Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and
 locate human remains or Human blood.

 The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog
 alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as
 evidence.

 Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
 alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
 indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.

 My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
 suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
 suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
 number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
 reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
 corroborating evidence.

Vol IX p. 2478


www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm




Comment:  Isn't it strange that the dogs never alerted in any other apartment or villa and that includes the Murat property?  Additionally, they did not alert to property belonging to any others within the group.    The cross contamination theory therefore would appear to be virtually worthless because of this.  No wonder Dr Amaral was convinced that the McCanns were complicit in some way in their daughters disappearance.

It is very revealing when people post a "full report" but show bias by highlighting only certain aspects of it without giving any explanation for that action.

As for the comment you add, I think you are completely wrong. The cross-contamination theory is actually a very sensible explanation as to why there were no alerts in other locations.

Had one item of clothing which had been in close contact with a cadaver been brought from England either by the McCanns or by previous occupants of the apartment and had rested in the cupboard in the bedroom it could have been the source of all the alerts via contamination.

For example, had the trousers of Kate McCann been in contact with a cadaver, had she sat on the grass outside the apartment while playing with the children, had the cuddle cat been carried in a pocket of the trousers and had the trousers been in a box with the other clothes rubbing against them, then I can see that the alerts might have had a single source. It surprises me that others rule this possibility out without explanation.

[pathfinder73]

If they arrest Smithman (with no pot belly) then we will know who's body it was that the dogs alerted to in 5A and other places connected to.........

[Mr Gray]

Your overly emotive language , your insults and personal attacks indicate where the desperation lies!

A cadaver dog alerted in and around an apartment from which a child went missing.

You cannot prove that the two are not related simply by ranting at posters.

another one making a challenge to prove  a negative..in case you've missed it ...its called a celestial teapot argument and is a sign of someone who doesn't understand debate

[gilet]

What evidence would you accept as proof that the dog did not alert to cadavour odour?

And remembering that the PJ and others have attempted to find evidence that proves the dogs did alert to cadaver odour and failed, what might Stephen25000 put forward to persuade us that any such evidence ever existed?

[Carew]

No-one knows exactly what the VRD alerted to in apartment 5a.

There is no proof of cadaver. 

If there had been proof of cadaver, evidence would have been required to prove whose cadaver it was.

This alters nothing I said.

An EVR dog alerted in the apartment from which a child went missing.

Linking the two cannot be dismissed.

[Brietta]

This alters nothing I said.

An EVR dog alerted in the apartment from which a child went missing.

Linking the two cannot be dismissed.

Because cadaver odour is transferrable and has many explanations, not necessarily death, but any human decomposition, a VRD alert means nothing without attendant evidence of death.

The search for Shannon Matthews continued despite a VRD alerting.
Thankfully, Shannon was found alive. 

IMO as has been demonstrated by Shannon's case and others in many instances there is no evidential link between a dog alert and a missing person.

[gilet]

This alters nothing I said.

An EVR dog alerted in the apartment from which a child went missing.

Linking the two cannot be dismissed.

But neither can any link be determined and rest assured the very best the PJ had spent time trying to detemine such a link. Yet they failed.

[Mr Gray]

It is possible to prove a negative. Check out Professor Hales for one. It depends on constraints and domain size. The particular postulation you quote has severe constraints placed upon it and an almost infinite domain size.
I look forward to your abusive reply.

I've never said it was possible not to prove  a negative...a simple negative that is. its easy to prove you cannot throw a seven on  a six sided dice for instance. Once the domain size gets bigger it IS impossible to prove a negative....Im sure Hales would agree with me

[Mr Gray]

But neither can any link be determined and rest assured the very best the PJ had spent time trying to detemine such a link. Yet they failed.

The two best CSI dogs in the world failed to find any evidence...what does that tell you

[stephen25000]

After all this time don't you feel a fool promoting a teapot argument and challenging posters to prove a negative. it shows the absolute desperate weakness of your position

There is no weakness at all.

The dogs made indications, FACT.

The forensics were inconclusive,FACT.

The fact that the forensics were inconclusive does not preclude they indicated correctly, no matter what you or your partner gilet may think. 

Meanwhile you are most welcome to continue orbiting the Sun between Earth and Mars.

Have a good day.

[Mr Gray]

There is no weakness at all.

The dogs made indications, FACT.

The forensics were inconclusive,FACT.

The fact that the forensics were inconclusive does not preclude they indicated correctly, no matter what you or your partner gilet may think. 

Meanwhile you are most welcome to continue orbiting the Sun between Earth and Mars.

Have a good day.

You have stated two facts which prove nothing...that is a fact and shows the absolute weakness of your argument

[Cornelius]

What evidence would you accept as proof that the dog did not alert to cadaver odour?

I was not talking about dogs. I was refuting the oft quoted phrase you cannot prove a negative.
The favourite on this forum seems to be Russell's Teapot which was quoted by Russell in relation to whether or not God exists.

[Brietta]

Don’t know if this is off topic as it does not relate to a VRD, only ordinary mutts.

My uncle set off in his dingy to do a spot of sea angling. 

He did not return and a search began immediately, no Sea Kings, GPS or mobile phones in those days, only the local lifeboat and watchers from shore, the male relatives with binoculars sweeping the bay and the female at home praying and generally lamenting. 

The family were beside themselves. 

At approximately 4am both dogs in the house began to howl simultaneously and refused to stop. 

This was taken as a harbinger of death and caused untold grief. 

It was around this time that my uncle, minus his oar, was being towed to the harbour by the lifeboat.

The dogs had ‘picked up’ on the human behaviour and did what dogs do, which was entirely misinterpreted by the humans.