New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.

[goatboy]

I can't see her providing anything new unless she is brave enough to name Jeremy's co conspirator.  And no I'm not going to reveal that here until my own enquiries are complete.

As far as her being a supporter or a critic of Jeremy is concerned I hope she simply repeats all the evidence and doesn't pick out the juicy bits just for the sake of it.

Everyone who has studied the Bamber case knows that Jeremy's guilt is based on Sheila's innocence.  The former is intrinsically linked to the latter and that unfortunately for Jeremy is the reason he will never win an appeal.  All the tangible evidence points to Sheila being a victim and that can never change no matter how many pigskins get shot at or how many paid 'exerts' or MP's crawl out from under a stone to bleat foul play.

On the subject of the book, time will tell but one thing is for sure, it would need to be a dam site better than the intro with its basic flaw or else it and Mss Lee are going to be torn to shreds!

I for one would be interested to hear your thoughts on a co-conspirator. Though do you mean someone who helped with the planning or someone who actually assisted him at the scene (not necessarily firing a gun but maybe making sure Sheila didn't run away etc)? I think most of the people who think he is guilty assume he did it single handedly. I would have thought if Bamber had someone with him for "crowd control" then there wouldn't have been the struggle with Neville. But as I said I would be interested to hear your theory.

[scipio_usmc]

I for one would be interested to hear your thoughts on a co-conspirator. Though do you mean someone who helped with the planning or someone who actually assisted him at the scene (not necessarily firing a gun but maybe making sure Sheila didn't run away etc)? I think most of the people who think he is guilty assume he did it single handedly. I would have thought if Bamber had someone with him for "crowd control" then there wouldn't have been the struggle with Neville. But as I said I would be interested to hear your theory.

As I recall there was a guy Julie Mugford spoke of who seemed to be aware ofJeremy's disregard for his family and may have known about the murders.  I have not seen anything to suggest that person or anyone else helped him carry out the murders though.

[John]

I have no doubt whatsoever that this person whom I refer to as a co conspirator knew in advance what Jeremy was planning and most probably egged him on.  I am not the only one who suspected this individual as those who have followed this case very closely will know.

[sika]

I have no doubt whatsoever that this person whom I refer to as a co conspirator knew in advance what Jeremy was planning and most probably egged him on.  I am not the only one who suspected this individual as those who have followed this case very closely will know.

Brett Collins?

[scipio_usmc]

Brett Collins?

Must be.  That's the friend Julie said was constantly with Jeremy after the murders who was helping him sell everything.  If anyone is going to claim Jeremy had help he would be the one. 

[John]

No comment.

[Holly Goodhead]

Must be.  That's the friend Julie said was constantly with Jeremy after the murders who was helping him sell everything.  If anyone is going to claim Jeremy had help he would be the one.

Based on what exactly?  The idea that there's a huge pool of folk who suddenly just decide to help a mate slaughter his entire immediate family including two small boys is I think frankly a bit far fetched.

JB met Brett Collins while travelling/working in New Zealand, much the same as we all make and maintain friends we meet while travelling. 

The police checked out BC and confirmed:

1. He was visiting family in Greece when the tragedy took place.

2. RWB had background checks carried out on BC and nothing untoward was found.

BC assisted JB in his dealings with Sotheby's as he had an interest in antiques (confirmed by AE in her wit stat).  JB needed  to raise cash to meet the significant inheritance tax liability on the estate.  If JB did not want the items then why not sell them and raise cash for the considerable expenditure he faced:

- 5 x funerals

- Inheritance tax liability (known in 1985 as capital transfer tax):  Nil rate band 85/86 = 67k.  I haven't got time  right now to work the figs out but the upper limit on an estate valued at 436k = 60% capital transfer tax (now known as inheritance tax) 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/inheritance/appendix_a8.pdf

NB had taken out loans to purchase land on behalf of the Eatons and to renovate his mother's former home in Surrey shortly before his death.  Clearly not cash rich or why take out the loans?

How/when would you propose JB dealt with the considerable tax liability he was faced with?

[John]

Yes, he was in Greece when the murders took place, wasn't that lucky for him?   Robert Boutflour went to the trouble and expense of putting a private detective on Mr Collins' tail and then turned the information over to the police.  It appears he had a less than enthralling record down under and disappeared just as quickly as he had arrived to begin with.  I have however managed to trace him to New Zealand and the small cottage he resided in but that is for another day.

[scipio_usmc]

Based on what exactly?  The idea that there's a huge pool of folk who suddenly just decide to help a mate slaughter his entire immediate family including two small boys is I think frankly a bit far fetched.

JB met Brett Collins while travelling/working in New Zealand, much the same as we all make and maintain friends we meet while travelling. 

The police checked out BC and confirmed:

1. He was visiting family in Greece when the tragedy took place.

2. RWB had background checks carried out on BC and nothing untoward was found.

BC assisted JB in his dealings with Sotheby's as he had an interest in antiques (confirmed by AE in her wit stat).  JB needed  to raise cash to meet the significant inheritance tax liability on the estate.  If JB did not want the items then why not sell them and raise cash for the considerable expenditure he faced:

- 5 x funerals

- Inheritance tax liability (known in 1985 as capital transfer tax):  Nil rate band 85/86 = 67k.  I haven't got time  right now to work the figs out but the upper limit on an estate valued at 436k = 60% capital transfer tax (now known as inheritance tax) 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/inheritance/appendix_a8.pdf

NB had taken out loans to purchase land on behalf of the Eatons and to renovate his mother's former home in Surrey shortly before his death.  Clearly not cash rich or why take out the loans?

How/when would you propose JB dealt with the considerable tax liability he was faced with?

1) A co-conspirator by definition is different than an accomplice.  He didn't need to help carry out the murders to be a co-conspirator. No one was suggesting that Jeremy had help doing the actual killing the claim was that someone helped Jeremy plan the murders and egged him on.  I noted multiple times that I have not seen any reliable evidence to indicate anyone helped him plan it but the possibility is still there.  Either Jeremy's own hatred of his family and desire for wealth was the sole driving force or there was th eadded force of someone who was egging him on and even perhaps helping wiht the planning.  Julie was against it so maybe he did have someone else he was tlaking about it with.

2) Julie seems to hint that Collins was much more involved with Jeremy than simply as a broker for the goods.  Maybe he did share with Collins much of what went down after the fact.  Maybe he share dit before though or maybe Collins helped egg him on and even was invovled with the planning.  Much more research would be needed to detemrine which is the case. It does seem odd that Jeremy didn't come up with the idea sooner if he came up with it all on his own.  But there is no way to know how long someone will go before they decide to act on criminal impulses such as these. Apparently he talked about it with Julie for many months before he finally acted. Much ore needs to be known about what was going on behind the scenes to figure out if Collins actually helped him engineer the plan or egged him on.

3) You can invest money in stocks, bonds, certificates of deposit and other such instruments and it will not be immediately liquid.  You take out loans so that you can hopefully make more on your investments than you pay in interest. 

Many of the goods were not being sold because he needed money to pay death taxes. They were goods that he didn't want but that he thought were valuable like silverware that he thought was extremely valuable but wasn't. He was hoping to get a nice payday for various things he thought were antiques. He was trying to maximize his profits not to sell chattle so that he would be able to pay death taxes.
 
You need to stop straining so hard to explain things that can be explained away easy enough.  It shows your bias even more. It is enough to say he didn't want the items because they were not his taste and he thought they were valuable antiques so decide to sell them.  The cars were not his taste so he decided to sell them. 

The thing that makes you wonder if he was involved is some of the things that Julie said about their actions together, being glued to eachother and even Collins joking about the murders.  I am pretty damn blunt and irreverant but woul dnot joke about murders with a survivng family member.  If you know there is no wound at all present to hurt maybe then you would make such jokes.  So it seems to suggest he knew Jeremy didn't care about the loss at all and hints he might know alot more as some suggest.  But that could be explained by Jeremy telling him about the murders or telling him about his desire to kill them.  It doesn't necessarily mean he helped plan them or egged him on. Since he told Julie all those times he wanted to kill them and wished they were dead maybe he told the same to Collins.

Unless and until evidence surfaces to implicate a co-conspirator though I will just say it is a theory people have that has not been proven.     

 

[Holly Goodhead]

Based on the link above I've calculated the inheritance tax at £109,700.  This was due by 31st January 1986.  Interest was charged at 9% per day if unpaid

It seems the Bambers were not cash rich hence the bank loans for purposes where interest could not be off-set eg the renovation of NB's mother's home in Surrey.

It seems the main assets were as follows:

N & J Bamber Ltd
Maldon Growers
OCP
Farm equip (incl in N & J Bamber Ltd?)
Personal chattels
Property - Maida Vale
Property - Surrey
Property - Goldhanger

How was JB to fund the tax liability and cost of 5 funerals?   

[scipio_usmc]

Based on the link above I've calculated the inheritance tax at £109,700.  This was due by 31st January 1986.  Interest was charged at 9% per day if unpaid

It seems the Bambers were not cash rich hence the bank loans for purposes where interest could not be off-set eg the renovation of NB's mother's home in Surrey.

It seems the main assets were as follows:

N & J Bamber Ltd
Maldon Growers
OCP
Farm equip (incl in N & J Bamber Ltd?)
Personal chattels
Property - Maida Vale
Property - Surrey
Property - Goldhanger

How was JB to fund the tax liability and cost of 5 funerals?

You are making matters worse for yourself. I don't care enough to look into the full financial picture as far as liquidity is concerned.  It is sufficient to know that Jeremy himself admitted to playing a prank falsely claiming to his relatives that he needed to sell WHF to pay the inheritance tax.  He didn't it was a joke, which suggests he did in fact have a means to pay it.

Worse yet the goods in question that Collins helped him sell did not bring in much thus barely made a dent in the death tax.  He grossly overstimated the value of these goods.

Worst of all for your case though, you readily admit the tax was not due until more than 5 months after the murders.   

January 1986 is far enough away not to have to immediately sell assets no sooner than they are in the ground. The assets were sold because he didn't want to keep them and thought he would get a nice bundle of money to go vacation with/ fund expensive living for a while.

This really demonstrates how different our philosophies are.

You don't accept that Collins was a co-conspirator because that would make Jeremy guilty. 

I don't accept that Collins was a co-conspirator because I have not seen evidence to establish it and discuss objectively how it is a theory that people have that has not been supported to date with much evidence. 

I am objective and follow the evidence, you are biased, decide what you believe based on your bias then try to twist to support what you want to believe even when no twisting is necessary. 

The fact you don't understand the scientific principles at work and do not master the facts only makes things worse.

For instance you presented a great way for me to embarrass you but I didn't bother but now I will:

"Samples taken from the victims were able to produce a PGM reading which the sample was unable to produce.  Have you any thoughts on this?"

PGM 1+ is a genetic marker that not all people have.

Sheila tested negative for PGM 1+ as did the sample taken from the moderator.  Tested negative means she has no PG 1+ in her blood.  The sample matched her blood perfectly.  The sample was not missing anything.

Sheila- EAP BA, AK I, Hp 2-1
Evidence- EAP BA, AK1, Hp 2-1

It is June and nevill who had PGM markers in their blood.

You thus are highlighting that they had PGM markers while Sheila did not and the sample didn't have any either thus matched her perfectly.

I have no idea where you were trying to go with it but it hurts your cause it doesn't help your cause so why you brought it up I have no idea.

My answer to your question is simple.  Sheila didn't have a PGM marker in her blood and thus the fact the sample didn't leave one either suggests it is her blood.  If it had been June or Nevill's blood then it should have PGM 1+ in addition to BAP and AK2-1.

Someone competent would know that the defense made the following argument.  That PGM 1+ breaks down reatively easily and suggested the blood in the suppressor was tested late enough that it had already broken down so was not detected.  Also that the blood had not fully mixed intimately and thus AK2-1 (that should have been present if June's blood was there) ended up in a different location in the suppressor than the flake that was tested.
 
If you mastered the details you might not have to strain so hard and might not make so many mistakes.

The worst part is that most of those on the blue board are worse than you. Maggie and caroline have absolutely no idea how to think or formulate arguments, it is amazing.

Maybe you can place a post asking them to approve my membership so I can have fun making them chase their tails around and make their heads spin too.

   

[Holly Goodhead]

You are making matters worse for yourself. I don't care enough to look into the full financial picture as far as liquidity is concerned.It is sufficient to know that Jeremy himself admitted to playing a prank falsely claiming to his relatives that he needed to sell WHF to pay the inheritance tax.  He didn't it was a joke, which suggests he did in fact have a means to pay it.

Worse yet the goods in question that Collins helped him sell did not bring in much thus barely made a dent in the death tax.  He grossly overstimated the value of these goods.

Worst of all for your case though, you readily admit the tax was not due until more than 5 months after the murders.   

January 1986 is far enough away not to have to immediately sell assets no sooner than they are in the ground. The assets were sold because he didn't want to keep them and thought he would get a nice bundle of money to go vacation with/ fund expensive living for a while.

This really demonstrates how different our philosophies are.

You don't accept that Collins was a co-conspirator because that would make Jeremy guilty. 

I don't accept that Collins was a co-conspirator because I have not seen evidence to establish it and discuss objectively how it is a theory that people have that has not been supported to date with much evidence. 

I am objective and follow the evidence, you are biased, decide what you believe based on your bias then try to twist to support what you want to believe even when no twisting is necessary. 

The fact you don't understand the scientific principles at work and do not master the facts only makes things worse.

For instance you presented a great way for me to embarrass you but I didn't bother but now I will:

"Samples taken from the victims were able to produce a PGM reading which the sample was unable to produce.  Have you any thoughts on this?"

PGM 1+ is a genetic marker that not all people have.

Sheila tested negative for PGM 1+ as did the sample taken from the moderator.  Tested negative means she has no PG 1+ in her blood.  The sample matched her blood perfectly.  The sample was not missing anything.

Sheila- EAP BA, AK I, Hp 2-1
Evidence- EAP BA, AK1, Hp 2-1

It is June and nevill who had PGM markers in their blood.

You thus are highlighting that they had PGM markers while Sheila did not and the sample didn't have any either thus matched her perfectly.

I have no idea where you were trying to go with it but it hurts your cause it doesn't help your cause so why you brought it up I have no idea.

My answer to your question is simple.  Sheila didn't have a PGM marker in her blood and thus the fact the sample didn't leave one either suggests it is her blood.  If it had been June or Nevill's blood then it should have PGM 1+ in addition to BAP and AK2-1.

Someone competent would know that the defense made the following argument.  That PGM 1+ breaks down reatively easily and suggested the blood in the suppressor was tested late enough that it had already broken down so was not detected.  Also that the blood had not fully mixed intimately and thus AK2-1 (that should have been present if June's blood was there) ended up in a different location in the suppressor than the flake that was tested.
 
If you mastered the details you might not have to strain so hard and might not make so many mistakes.

The worst part is that most of those on the blue board are worse than you. Maggie and caroline have absolutely no idea how to think or formulate arguments, it is amazing.

Maybe you can place a post asking them to approve my membership so I can have fun making them chase their tails around and make their heads spin too.

 

The Bambers were tenant farmers.    . WHF was owned by The Henry Smith Charity, reg no. 230102)

The rest of your post is as bad as your first gaffe

Night night Scipio

[scipio_usmc]

The Bambers were tenant farmers.    . WHF was owned by The Henry Smith Charity, reg no. 230102)

The rest of your post is as bad as your first gaffe

Night night Scipio

I know they were tenants.  Where did I state otherwise? What gaffe did I make?  I stated a fact. Jeremy decided to play a joke telling his relatives he had to sell WHF ot pay the death taxes.  The joke wa sindeed on him because then he found out his parents didn't own it.

You can't prove anything I sad wrong so you create a false claim, claim I was wrong about it and that you have no need to address anything else.

That just makes you look like a dishonest fool who can't prove me wrong and thus is running away from the debate.  But maybe that is in fact the case not just an appearance.

Anything you throw at me I can smash in great detail.  Anything I throw at you, you run away from.

The truth hurts doesn't it.   

[Holly Goodhead]

You are making matters worse for yourself. I don't care enough to look into the full financial picture as far as liquidity is concerned.  It is sufficient to know that Jeremy himself admitted to playing a prank falsely claiming to his relatives that he needed to sell WHF to pay the inheritance tax.  He didn't it was a joke, which suggests he did in fact have a means to pay it.

Worse yet the goods in question that Collins helped him sell did not bring in much thus barely made a dent in the death tax.  He grossly overstimated the value of these goods.

Worst of all for your case though, you readily admit the tax was not due until more than 5 months after the murders.   

January 1986 is far enough away not to have to immediately sell assets no sooner than they are in the ground. The assets were sold because he didn't want to keep them and thought he would get a nice bundle of money to go vacation with/ fund expensive living for a while.

This really demonstrates how different our philosophies are.

You don't accept that Collins was a co-conspirator because that would make Jeremy guilty. 

I don't accept that Collins was a co-conspirator because I have not seen evidence to establish it and discuss objectively how it is a theory that people have that has not been supported to date with much evidence. 

I am objective and follow the evidence, you are biased, decide what you believe based on your bias then try to twist to support what you want to believe even when no twisting is necessary. 

The fact you don't understand the scientific principles at work and do not master the facts only makes things worse.

For instance you presented a great way for me to embarrass you but I didn't bother but now I will:

"Samples taken from the victims were able to produce a PGM reading which the sample was unable to produce.  Have you any thoughts on this?"

PGM 1+ is a genetic marker that not all people have.

Sheila tested negative for PGM 1+ as did the sample taken from the moderator.  Tested negative means she has no PG 1+ in her blood.  The sample matched her blood perfectly.  The sample was not missing anything.

Sheila- EAP BA, AK I, Hp 2-1
Evidence- EAP BA, AK1, Hp 2-1

It is June and nevill who had PGM markers in their blood.

You thus are highlighting that they had PGM markers while Sheila did not and the sample didn't have any either thus matched her perfectly.

I have no idea where you were trying to go with it but it hurts your cause it doesn't help your cause so why you brought it up I have no idea.

My answer to your question is simple.  Sheila didn't have a PGM marker in her blood and thus the fact the sample didn't leave one either suggests it is her blood.  If it had been June or Nevill's blood then it should have PGM 1+ in addition to BAP and AK2-1.

Someone competent would know that the defense made the following argument.  That PGM 1+ breaks down reatively easily and suggested the blood in the suppressor was tested late enough that it had already broken down so was not detected.  Also that the blood had not fully mixed intimately and thus AK2-1 (that should have been present if June's blood was there) ended up in a different location in the suppressor than the flake that was tested.
 
If you mastered the details you might not have to strain so hard and might not make so many mistakes.

The worst part is that most of those on the blue board are worse than you. Maggie and caroline have absolutely no idea how to think or formulate arguments, it is amazing.

Maybe you can place a post asking them to approve my membership so I can have fun making them chase their tails around and make their heads spin too.

 

In the UK in order for an estate to be distributed to the beneficiaries in this case JB (had he not  been convicted) the executors (Basil Cock the accountant was one not sure if others existed) need to be granted  probate.  Probate is not granted until any inheritance tax due has been paid to Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC).  How was JB to meet the tax liability?

I agree the selling of the antiques was unlikely to put much of dent in the tax due but it would have sorted out the short term need for cash to fund his day to day expenditure and the unexpected cost of  5 funerals.

You might recall from JB's police interviews he was asked about his bank balances.  He said they fluctuated between a few hundred quid to a few thousand.  He had recently purchased various things for Goldhanger and was not particularly flush at the time.  Oh and given JM £400 towards a hol.  He signed an authority allowing EP to contact his bank.  He faced his normal expenditure, plus time away to escape press intrusion, plus 5 funerals.  How was he to fund all of this?  The inheritance tax was due by 31st Jan 1986.  We know NB purchased land on behalf of the Eatons for them to purchase at a later date.  Assuming this was for financial reasons and AE/PE went to NB and not RB/PB it seems unlikely the relatives would have been in a position to offer any temporary help with the inheritance tax?

SC did not test negative for Phosphoglycerate Mutase (PGM) which is an enzyme and nothing to do with DNA as you suggest.  The sample found in the silencer tested negative for PGM because this particular enzyme breaks down quickly once outside the body. 

Here's the table which shows the blood type/group of the victims along with the sample found:

                              ABO                    PGM                    EAP                     AK                    Hp

Nevill Bamber           O                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                   Hp2-1
June Bamber            A                         PGM1+                EAP BA               AK2-1                Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell            O                        PGM2+1+            EAP B                 AK1                   Hp2
Nicholas Caffell         O                        PGM2+1+           EAP B                 AK1                    Hp2
Sheila Caffell            A                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                    Hp2-1   
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Boutflour       A                        PGM1+                 EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blood Sample           A                        Nil                        EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[scipio_usmc]

In the UK in order for an estate to be distributed to the beneficiaries in this case JB (had he not  been convicted) the executors (Basil Cock the accountant was one not sure if others existed) need to be granted  probate.  Probate is not granted until any inheritance tax due has been paid to Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC).  How was JB to meet the tax liability?

I agree the selling of the antiques was unlikely to put much of dent in the tax due but it would have sorted out the short term need for cash to fund his day to day expenditure and the unexpected cost of  5 funerals.

You might recall from JB's police interviews he was asked about his bank balances.  He said they fluctuated between a few hundred quid to a few thousand.  He had recently purchased various things for Goldhanger and was not particularly flush at the time.  Oh and given JM £400 towards a hol.  He signed an authority allowing EP to contact his bank.  He faced his normal expenditure, plus time away to escape press intrusion, plus 5 funerals.  How was he to fund all of this?  The inheritance tax was due by 31st Jan 1986.  We know NB purchased land on behalf of the Eatons for them to purchase at a later date.  Assuming this was for financial reasons and AE/PE went to NB and not RB/PB it seems unlikely the relatives would have been in a position to offer any temporary help with the inheritance tax?

SC did not test negative for Phosphoglycerate Mutase (PGM) which is an enzyme and nothing to do with DNA as you suggest.  The sample found in the silencer tested negative for PGM because this particular enzyme breaks down quickly once outside the body. 

Here's the table which shows the blood type/group of the victims along with the sample found:

                              ABO                    PGM                    EAP                     AK                    Hp

Nevill Bamber           O                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                   Hp2-1
June Bamber            A                         PGM1+                EAP BA               AK2-1                Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell            O                        PGM2+1+            EAP B                 AK1                   Hp2
Nicholas Caffell         O                        PGM2+1+           EAP B                 AK1                    Hp2
Sheila Caffell            A                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                    Hp2-1   
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Boutflour       A                        PGM1+                 EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blood Sample           A                        Nil                        EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who said anything about DNA?  All I have ever noted about DNA is that DNA tests were not available at the time so any tissue found in back spatter owuld not be worth noting becuase it had no vlaue.  Today since we can figure out who tissue belongs to thatnks to DNA it has uitility.

That has no bearing on the issue at hand though.

You are like a broken record.  There was no need to sell goods immediatley to pay a tax bill 5 months away.  Jeremy didn't want the heirlooms and thouht they were worth a pretty penny so that is why he tried to sell them.  He told Julie he didn't want to burn WHF down because these valuable heirlooms would have been destroyed.  Had he known they were worthless and WHF was being leased and that his frame job was insufficient he probably would have burned it down if he had it to do over again.

The goods ended up being worthless so did not help at all with the death taxes nor were they likely to.  He planned to sell many assets because he didn't want to keep running the businesses, he wanted the money to spend and some perhaps to invest in other endeavors where he would not need to do any work. The heirlooms he tried to dump for some nice money to play around with but only the cars were worth anything. 

Jeremy never indicated any pressing need to sell anything except as a joke when he told his relatives he would have to sell WHF to pay the death taxes.

You are so desperate to be a JB apologist you make up things for him even when it is not necessary.

You seem not to care about the fact you demolish your own credibility at ever turn.