New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.

[Holly Goodhead]

Who said anything about DNA?  All I have ever noted about DNA is that DNA tests were not available at the time so any tissue found in back spatter owuld not be worth noting becuase it had no vlaue.  Today since we can figure out who tissue belongs to thatnks to DNA it has uitility.

That has no bearing on the issue at hand though.

You are like a broken record.  There was no need to sell goods immediatley to pay a tax bill 5 months away.  Jeremy didn't want the heirlooms and thouht they were worth a pretty penny so that is why he tried to sell them.  He told Julie he didn't want to burn WHF down because these valuable heirlooms would have been destroyed.  Had he known they were worthless and WHF was being leased and that his frame job was insufficient he probably would have burned it down if he had it to do over again.

The goods ended up being worthless so did not help at all with the death taxes nor were they likely to.  He planned to sell many assets because he didn't want to keep running the businesses, he wanted the money to spend and some perhaps to invest in other endeavors where he would not need to do any work. The heirlooms he tried to dump for some nice money to play around with but only the cars were worth anything. 

Jeremy never indicated any pressing need to sell anything except as a joke when he told his relatives he would have to sell WHF to pay the death taxes.

You are so desperate to be a JB apologist you make up things for him even when it is not necessary.

You seem not to care about the fact you demolish your own credibility at ever turn.

You did!  You claimed in your previous post that PGM is a genetic marker!  It is not it's an enzyme!

I agree as DNA testing was not available in 85/86 it would not have been possible to identify who any skin tissue belonged to in the same way it was not possible to prove who the blood belonged to since blood type/groups are not exclusive to individuals.  However you miss the point as per usual!  The point being that it is virtually unheard of for back-spatter to occur without accompanying tissue being drawn back into the barrel/silencer along with the blood.  Yet in the JB/WHF case we have no skin tissue but paint and a grey hair instead.  How very novel  >@@(*&)

Scipio I am not going round in circles with you.  I really have better things to do with my time. 

Carol Ann Lee's book will be published next week in Australia and Canada.  I have no idea if it will be anti, pro or neutral but one thing is for sure it will generate new interest in the case.  Paul Mason's book is to be published shortly in the UK I believe.  This I understand is pro Bamber.  Again this will generate further interest.  We have lots to look forward to Scipio.  Every cloud has a silver lining and for you it should mean that you no longer have to listen to my broken record  . You might have some new posters to bore enthral.

[goatboy]

Are you allowed to say if the forthcoming books are pro or anti Bamber? One author got very cross with me for suggesting his book was pro Bamber.    >@@(*&)

[scipio_usmc]

You did!  You claimed in your previous post that PGM is a genetic marker!  It is not it's an enzyme!

I agree as DNA testing was not available in 85/86 it would not have been possible to identify who any skin tissue belonged to in the same way it was not possible to prove who the blood belonged to since blood type/groups are not exclusive to individuals.  However you miss the point as per usual!  The point being that it is virtually unheard of for back-spatter to occur without accompanying tissue being drawn back into the barrel/silencer along with the blood.  Yet in the JB/WHF case we have no skin tissue but paint and a grey hair instead.  How very novel  >@@(*&)

I didn't miss any point.  I demolished the bogus point you tried to make.  My response absolutely killed you which is why you did not respond substantively to what I wrote.

1) You are lying. It is not virtually unheard of for tissue not to be present in back spatter. You posted a source that made a generalized claim that tissue often accompanies blood.  "Often" doesn't mean a majority of the time let alone always.  "Regularly" is the term used to mean a majority of the time.  That source was just a website anyway not a true source.  Books on the subject and journal articles use the term "may" accompany blood. There are no sources that say ther eusually will be tissue let alone always.  There are many factors at play particularly location of wound so general rules don't work.  So right off the bat you distorted that if there wasn't tissue that means the blood wasn't back spatter though it is in fact quite possible for there to be blood but no tissue and in fact a majority of the time a neck wound of that sort will not result in tissue being deposited in the barrel.  What kind of tissue ends up in a gun?  Fatty tissue, muscle tissue or brain tissue. Occasionally there will be skin tissue.  Is there fatty tissue, muscle or brain tissue in the neck area where the fatal shot occurred?  Nope.  At best skin tissue could have broken free but skin doesn't always break free, can go inside instead along with the bullet and would be quite small (microscopic) if any skin tissue did end up in the barrel. So your claim that tissue would have to be present for the blood to be back spatter doesn't survive scrutiny and needs no more response but I smashed it further.

2) You have no evidence that tissue wasn't found.  BECAUSE there was no way to test tissue at the time to try to determine who it belonged to it was POINTLESS to try to examine any microscopic skin tissue even if some had been located. Thus there would be no reason to mention said tissue if it were found.  The simple fact they only spoke about blood doesn't mean no tissue was found. You need to find testimony or a report that states no tissue was found to prove such claim.

3) They could have failed to find tissue that was present or ignored it because again during that era what mattered was the blood, a microscopic trace of tissue meant nothing and would add nothing to the equation at all. We now have more technology to both find tissue and to test determine who it blonged to so today it is sought out.

You never responded to any of these points, you just keep making the same bogus claim that tissue hads to be present for it to be back spatter.  That is no more true than your bogus claim that only head shots produce back spatter or only high caliber weapons. You simply make up anything you feel like and ignore the testimony which was that it was vertually certain for the neck wound to deposit back spatter in the weapon.     

Scipio I am not going round in circles with you.  I really have better things to do with my time. 

Carol Ann Lee's book will be published next week in Australia and Canada.  I have no idea if it will be anti, pro or neutral but one thing is for sure it will generate new interest in the case.  Paul Mason's book is to be published shortly in the UK I believe.  This I understand is pro Bamber.  Again this will generate further interest.  We have lots to look forward to Scipio.  Every cloud has a silver lining and for you it should mean that you no longer have to listen to my broken record  . You might have some new posters to bore enthral.

You love to debate when you deal with someone you can try your BS on. When it fails you just take your ball and go home.

No matter that just means the case I presented against Jeremy is unrebutted.

[goatboy]

Based on the link above I've calculated the inheritance tax at £109,700.  This was due by 31st January 1986.  Interest was charged at 9% per day if unpaid

It seems the Bambers were not cash rich hence the bank loans for purposes where interest could not be off-set eg the renovation of NB's mother's home in Surrey.

It seems the main assets were as follows:

N & J Bamber Ltd
Maldon Growers
OCP
Farm equip (incl in N & J Bamber Ltd?)
Personal chattels
Property - Maida Vale
Property - Surrey
Property - Goldhanger

How was JB to fund the tax liability and cost of 5 funerals?

You do make a good point here, but let's examine the facts. Was Jeremy Bamber squirrelling away his money to pay funeral and tax bills? Or was he spending it on expensive restaurants, holidays and gifts? Again, not the actions of someone struggling to pay tax and funeral bills!

[Holly Goodhead]

Are you allowed to say if the forthcoming books are pro or anti Bamber? One author got very cross with me for suggesting his book was pro Bamber.    >@@(*&)

Oh!  'Mason Doyle' was on Blue a few days ago and told Gladys off for referring to Bob Woffinden as "woof woof"  (typical Gladys)  so I wouldn't take his reprimands too seriously! 

I have no real idea whether his book is pro, anti or neutral.  I was just going on this:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Book+cop+I'll+show+Bamber's+innocent.-a0337437563

Where he states:

Harrison said: "It is not for me to say Jeremy is innocent, but his conviction is unsound. There has been a miscarriage of justice, of that I'm sure."

I am sure at some stage Scipio will be putting him right 

[Holly Goodhead]

Here's the table which shows the blood type/group of the victims along with the sample found:

                              ABO                    PGM                    EAP                     AK                    Hp

Nevill Bamber           O                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                   Hp2-1
June Bamber            A                         PGM1+                EAP BA               AK2-1                Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell            O                        PGM2+1+            EAP B                 AK1                   Hp2
Nicholas Caffell         O                        PGM2+1+           EAP B                 AK1                    Hp2
Sheila Caffell            A                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                    Hp2-1   
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Boutflour       A                        PGM1+                 EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blood Sample           A                        Nil                        EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was told by Bridget on Blue, usually a reliable source of info., that the reason the sample found in the silencer was unable to produce a PGM reading is that once this particular enzyme leaves the body it breaks down very quickly.  I wonder what the time differences were between the victims' samples being analysed at FSS and the silencer being analysed?  I have always thought this is an area that should be explored further.

[Lindyhop]

You do make a good point here, but let's examine the facts. Was Jeremy Bamber squirrelling away his money to pay funeral and tax bills? Or was he spending it on expensive restaurants, holidays and gifts? Again, not the actions of someone struggling to pay tax and funeral bills!

Quite. On the day of the funeral, didn't he treat his friends to champagne and lobster afterwards? As you do following such a traumatic event which had you sobbing like a 5 year old who had lost their favourite teddy...

Everyone was surprised at how good his appetite was a few hours after the killings, considering he had lost his entire family. He was calm enough to prepare and eat a full English breakfast. Reminds me of those murderers you read about who kill at night and then go to work as usual the following morning, as if they'd just swatted a few flies earlier on.

[John]

Off topic accepted but some estates can take years to conclude.  There was no urgency for Jerry to sell anything I'm afraid, simply his greed and his own choice.

Out of interest, Paul Harrison (Mason Doyle) posted here for a while last year but left when he found that debating the Bamber case with informed people rather than just writing about it wasn't for him.  I don't think there is much of anything he can bring to the case especially if he is pro Bamber.  These books are always good for a laugh though!   

[Holly Goodhead]

Off topic accepted but some estates can take years to conclude.  There was no urgency for Jerry to sell anything I'm afraid, simply his greed and his own choice.

Out of interest, Paul Harrison (Mason Doyle) posted here for a while last year but left when he found that debating the Bamber case with informed people rather than just writing about it wasn't for him.  I don't think there is much of anything he can bring to the case especially if he is pro Bamber.  These books are always good for a laugh though!   

Most of us don't find ourselves in the unenviable position of having to fund five funerals in one hit.

I think he was advised by Basil Cock, the accountant, to sell off the antiques.

[Holly Goodhead]

Quite. On the day of the funeral, didn't he treat his friends to champagne and lobster afterwards? As you do following such a traumatic event which had you sobbing like a 5 year old who had lost their favourite teddy...

Everyone was surprised at how good his appetite was a few hours after the killings, considering he had lost his entire family. He was calm enough to prepare and eat a full English breakfast. Reminds me of those murderers you read about who kill at night and then go to work as usual the following morning, as if they'd just swatted a few flies earlier on.

If you presented the above to any grief counsellor I think they would find it unremarkable.

[Holly Goodhead]

You do make a good point here, but let's examine the facts. Was Jeremy Bamber squirrelling away his money to pay funeral and tax bills? Or was he spending it on expensive restaurants, holidays and gifts? Again, not the actions of someone struggling to pay tax and funeral bills!

Well I guess it was up to him what he spent his money on. 

I guess Barbara Wilson, as farm secretary, might have been an authorised signatory on N & J Bamber Ltd?  JB?  JB would not have been able to access his parents' personal a/c's and/or *dispose of assets until probate was granted and that was likely to take some time with valuations required and agreements by HMRC.

*The antiques were probably the only assets that could 'disappear'. 

[goatboy]

Well I guess it was up to him what he spent his money on. 

I guess Barbara Wilson, as farm secretary, might have been an authorised signatory on N & J Bamber Ltd?  JB?  JB would not have been able to access his parents' personal a/c's and/or *dispose of assets until probate was granted and that was likely to take some time with valuations required and agreements by HMRC.

*The antiques were probably the only assets that could 'disappear'.

Absolutely, it was up to him to spend his money how he wanted and I do believe people grieve in different ways. But when you claim he only sold the antiques and personal effects to meet the costs of the funerals and inheritance tax, the fact he he spent money like water on holidays and ostentatiously lavish meals out (he even offered to buy Julie an expensive designer dress, Julie in a crisis of conscience refused and got one from Miss Selfridge instead for about £30) makes rather a mockery of your claims that he only sold the goods to meet bills. I suppose trying to sell nude photos of Sheila to the Sun was another way to pay off the tax bill too?

[goatboy]

Oh!  'Mason Doyle' was on Blue a few days ago and told Gladys off for referring to Bob Woffinden as "woof woof"  (typical Gladys)  so I wouldn't take his reprimands too seriously! 

I have no real idea whether his book is pro, anti or neutral.  I was just going on this:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Book+cop+I'll+show+Bamber's+innocent.-a0337437563

Where he states:

Harrison said: "It is not for me to say Jeremy is innocent, but his conviction is unsound. There has been a miscarriage of justice, of that I'm sure."

I am sure at some stage Scipio will be putting him right 

I would just like to add that it was you who mentioned MD's name and not me 

[John]

Holly, I have said previously that you are to be commended for you blind faith in Bamber but what I cannot understand is why when everything points to his guilt and I do mean everything literally?  Can you not see what happened in the Hall case and the Mrs actually married him?

Why do you believe he is innocent Holly when so many before you have been discarded by him after they have served their purpose?

[scipio_usmc]

Here's the table which shows the blood type/group of the victims along with the sample found:

                              ABO                    PGM                    EAP                     AK                    Hp

Nevill Bamber           O                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                   Hp2-1
June Bamber            A                         PGM1+                EAP BA               AK2-1                Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell            O                        PGM2+1+            EAP B                 AK1                   Hp2
Nicholas Caffell         O                        PGM2+1+           EAP B                 AK1                    Hp2
Sheila Caffell            A                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                    Hp2-1   
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Boutflour       A                        PGM1+                 EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blood Sample           A                        Nil                        EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was told by Bridget on Blue, usually a reliable source of info., that the reason the sample found in the silencer was unable to produce a PGM reading is that once this particular enzyme leaves the body it breaks down very quickly.  I wonder what the time differences were between the victims' samples being analysed at FSS and the silencer being analysed?  I have always thought this is an area that should be explored further.

I noted the same thing to you. It is common to be unable to get a reading.  You hard on the fact that the suppressor was not subited to police until days after the murders which is more than long enough to account for the negative reading.

In any event only the twins had a different PGM reading.  But they both have HP2 yet HP2-1 was detected so they are ruled out without even needing a PGM reading.

So we are left with experts from the defense and prosecution both agreeing the blood was group A and very remote chance it was June and Nevill's mixed.

Since the chance of it being June and Nevill's is too remote to constitute reasonable doubt, you make up your own.  You claim there is a reasonable likelihood that the blood and paint were planted on/in the suppressor.

Yet each time you are asked who did it, where they got the blood from, whose blood it was and how they planted it and what evidence you have to establish such details you have no response.  Your sole evidence that it was tampered with and the evidence planted is the simple fact the suppressor was handed over to poice by the family and thus the family had the opportunity to tamper with it.

You have no evidence at all to establish they did tamper with it though. You failed miserably at establishing there is a reasonable likelihood it was tampered with.  You have no idea who to even blame for it you just want to believe it was tampered with because you want to believe Jeremy is guilty. Notice I used the term want to believe because your demeanor suggests you don't believe it you just try to convince people including yourself that you believe it.