Author Topic: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.  (Read 33870 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2014, 08:52:50 PM »
Well I guess it was up to him what he spent his money on. 

I guess Barbara Wilson, as farm secretary, might have been an authorised signatory on N & J Bamber Ltd?  JB?  JB would not have been able to access his parents' personal a/c's and/or *dispose of assets until probate was granted and that was likely to take some time with valuations required and agreements by HMRC.

*The antiques were probably the only assets that could 'disappear'.

What a turnaround.  You went from insisting he had to sell the antiques to save the money for the death taxes to admitting he sold them because they are the things that could vanish and he could use that money to fund some clubbing and extravagance.

Only since they were not of all that much value the extavagance wasn't as much as he hoped for.

I bet you are sorry you even brought this up because it enabled a new line of attack against him.

Similar to how I mentioned Rivlin bringing up things you wanted would have opened the door to more evidence against Jeremy at trial and would not have helped in the least as the theories you presented were spmashed but rather would have hurt him.

You can't deal with the blood the defense found on the first 8 baffles and niether could Rivlin the last thing he wanted was that before the jury.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2014, 09:16:08 PM »
Absolutely, it was up to him to spend his money how he wanted and I do believe people grieve in different ways. But when you claim he only sold the antiques and personal effects to meet the costs of the funerals and inheritance tax, the fact he he spent money like water on holidays and ostentatiously lavish meals out (he even offered to buy Julie an expensive designer dress, Julie in a crisis of conscience refused and got one from Miss Selfridge instead for about £30) makes rather a mockery of your claims that he only sold the goods to meet bills. I suppose trying to sell nude photos of Sheila to the Sun was another way to pay off the tax bill too?

I see the above as little more than character assassination eg "and ostentatiously lavish meals".  Has anyone identified the restaurants involved so we can check them out to see how they compare.  I think a regular haunt of JB's was the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham on Crouch.  If so it is not exactly Kensington and Chelsea or Paris.  I doubt there was much on offer at CC that was not within reach of Joe Average?  Looks like it might be an Indian now. 

JM might have had a crisis of conscience and opted for a £30 number from Miss Selfridge but it didn't stop her allowing JB to wine and dine her, take her away on weekend breaks/hols and accepting £400 towards a hol for a month or so after the tragedy. According to JM she knew straight away JB was responsible for WHF as JB told her "tonights the night"! 

I think the less said about the Sun/journos the better.  They claim they would never have published the photos and would have opted for the moral high ground  8-)(--). Don't believe that had they ever seriously been offered that they wouldn't have obtained proof even if only a tape recording and photos of the trio meeting up.

Yes I think JB wanted shot of anything he could lay his hands on to reduce the value of the estate and to help with the unexpected cost of 5 x funerals and the inheritance tax bill.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2014, 09:42:41 PM »
Holly, I have said previously that you are to be commended for you blind faith in Bamber but what I cannot understand is why when everything points to his guilt and I do mean everything literally?  Can you not see what happened in the Hall case and the Mrs actually married him?

Why do you believe he is innocent Holly when so many before you have been discarded by him after they have served their purpose?

Awwww I think you are feeling protective towards me  8**8:/:  Thank you.

Please be assured I will not be marrying JB.  In fact I often feel quite guilty as I go months before replying to his letters.  Any poster will tell you I'm not big into pm'ing.

Big difference between Bamber and Hall is that Hall had previous for violent conduct not so for JB.

I don't believe there's any reliable evidence at all which is why we have so much mud slinging.  It is simply down to how individuals interpret the information.
 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline goatboy

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2014, 10:36:14 PM »
I see the above as little more than character assassination eg "and ostentatiously lavish meals".  Has anyone identified the restaurants involved so we can check them out to see how they compare.  I think a regular haunt of JB's was the Caribbean Cottage at Burnham on Crouch.  If so it is not exactly Kensington and Chelsea or Paris.  I doubt there was much on offer at CC that was not within reach of Joe Average?  Looks like it might be an Indian now. 

JM might have had a crisis of conscience and opted for a £30 number from Miss Selfridge but it didn't stop her allowing JB to wine and dine her, take her away on weekend breaks/hols and accepting £400 towards a hol for a month or so after the tragedy. According to JM she knew straight away JB was responsible for WHF as JB told her "tonights the night"! 

I think the less said about the Sun/journos the better.  They claim they would never have published the photos and would have opted for the moral high ground  8-)(--). Don't believe that had they ever seriously been offered that they wouldn't have obtained proof even if only a tape recording and photos of the trio meeting up.

Yes I think JB wanted shot of anything he could lay his hands on to reduce the value of the estate and to help with the unexpected cost of 5 x funerals and the inheritance tax bill.

Character assassination? He's a convicted child killer! I hardly think mentioning that he did lead an extravagant lifestyle in the weeks after the murders is character assassination.

I'm no fan of Sun journos either. But are you denying that someone tried to sell these photos on his behalf? Even the diehards on blue try to claim it was Brett Collins who tried to broker the deal.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2014, 11:20:17 PM »
Awwww I think you are feeling protective towards me  8**8:/:  Thank you.

Please be assured I will not be marrying JB.  In fact I often feel quite guilty as I go months before replying to his letters.  Any poster will tell you I'm not big into pm'ing.

Big difference between Bamber and Hall is that Hall had previous for violent conduct not so for JB.

I don't believe there's any reliable evidence at all which is why we have so much mud slinging.  It is simply down to how individuals interpret the information.
 

Every criminal has a first time. Some have a violent history before that others do not.  Some have a violenet history that everyone is unaware of because they were never caught.  So trying to rely on the fact he hadn't been proven to be violent previously doesn't really establish anything.

Your excuses for why the evidence against JB is unreliable were all were torn to shreds on this board.

For instance you insist that nothing was suspicious about the bedroom phone being rlocated to the kitchen prior to the murders because the farm secretary said the phone bedroom was moved there routinely when the kitchen phone broke.  You then claimed the kitchen cordless phone was in the shop so the bedroom phone simply replaced it.  But the bedroom phone didn't replace the cordless phone you lied.  The were normally 2 phones in the kitchen, a corded phone and a cordless.  The corded phone was replaced by the bedroom phone.  The corded phone was properly working it wasn't broken.  Yet it was unplugged and hidden and the bedroom phone was plugged in the jack where it was normally plugged.  The kitchen phone that wa sunplugged and hidden was touch tone.  The bedroom phone that replaced it was rotary.  Why would someone take a touch tone phone, replace it with a rotary phone and hide the touch tone phone so it could not be used at all?  You coudl not answer that question.  Instead you repeated the bogus claim that the bedroom phone replaced the cordless phone and that such was customary. You ignored the fact the touch one phone was hidden so that it had to be replaced by the bedroom phone and that there would be no valid reason for doing so.  It is quite obvious the killer did this in advance because the killer intended to kill the victims in the bedroom and didn't want the victims to be able to call anyone to disclose what was transpiring or worse disclose who was perpetrating it.

This is not an example of disagreement over interpretation of the evidence.    This is an example of you ignoring evidence and intentionally twisting the facts to suit your purposes.  Your claim the cordless phone was replaced by the rotary bedroom phone is absolutely false.  It replaced a perfectly working touch tone phone that was unplugged and hidden for no valid reason.

What about the blood and paint on/in the suppressor?  You created a number of bogus assertions to justify your claim the blood was planted.  You invented the fiction that tissue would have to be present in the blood in order for it to be back spatter even though that is far from the truth and tissue often doesn't acocmpany blood. Whether it is likely to or not is a function of the location of the wound among other variables.  You also invented the fiction that the location of the wound in question would be unlikely to result in back spatter though the expert in the case testified to the contrary. The expert testified the location was virtually certain to result in back spatter and that there would be blood in the rifle if it had been used without the suppressor. The expert in the case also determined the fatal wound was either a contact wound or within 2mm of the throat. You ignored that and keep asserting the fiction that the fatal shot was fired from a distance and there would not be any back spatte rint he suppressor or muzzle.  You have no evidentiary basis for any of these asserions you just make up things to suit your agenda.  That is not a disagreement over interpretation of evidence.  It is an example of you ignoring evidence and facts and simply making up bogus facts that suit you. 

The bottom line is that you have no valid basis to assert the blood evidence and paint were planted. You don't believe it was planted because you interpret the evidence differently.  You simply decided to blindly believe he is innocent and that means it must have been planted and try to make up bogus excuses to prove it was planted.

You don't even have a specific person in mind for the planting though.  You were reapetedly asked who you believe planted the blood, where the blood came from, whose blood it is and how it was planted.  You have no theory as to any of these. You just blindly say someone planted it because he is innocent. 

That is not a disagreement over interpretation of evidence it is you ignoring evidence because it refutes what you want to believe. 

What evidence do you have that supports your assertion that:

1) Sheila knew how to lock and load the gun and how to operate it.
2) Even though there was a full box of bullets right next to the gun when she retreived it, she went to the gun closet and took 5-8 bullets into the kitchen to leave with the other bullets. 
3) Though Sheila was on her medication and docile before going to bed, Sheila went into a rage and woke up her parents between 2 and 3AM screaming at them while waiving a gun in her hands
4) Instead of disarming her Nevill went to the kitchen and phoned Jeremy to ask him to come disarm her whicke would take at least 5 minutes for him to arrive if not longer becaus ehe would need to dress before leaving to drive there.
5) She took the phone from Nevill's hand and hung it up then ordered him upstairs back to the bedroom because she wanted to shoot him there instead of the kitchen
6) Though she was extremely close to him and he could have tried to take the gun away, instead of disarming her like he wanted Jeremy to come do, he simply marched up the bedroom
7) Sheila doesn't stand int he doorway of the bedroom but rather goes all the way inside so that her parents have open access to the bedroom door. They race to the door and she opens fire.  June is disabeled but Nevill escapes and runs back to the kitchen.
8) Nevill passes out in the kitchen and knocks a chair over as he collapses but instead of shooting him she then beats his limp body even bashing his arm so that it looks like he has defensive wounds and tried to defend himself. She breaks the rifle stock she hits him so hard but the stock doesn't leave a scratch on her hand.
9) She then shoots him several more times in the head killing him.
10) She goes back upstairs to finish off June and kill her boys.
11) She washes and changes her clothes
12) She kills herself

What evidence is there to support your account?

Note how you ignore the phone preplanning completely. 

If this were true the gun was used without the suppressor and she was running around screaming first then why didn't the boys wake? 

If they were shot first then Nevill would have noted such on the phone.

If she were out of control why would she take the phone and hang it up instead of shooting him?

If she were out of control why would she march him to the bedroom instead of shooting him in the kitchen?

Why would she march him to the bedroom then go all the way inside so his parents had access to the door while she was on the other side of the room facing them? 

Why would Nevill never try to disarm her but expect Jeremy to come do it?  Especially with the doors locked so Jeremy could not evne get in.  Why wait 5-10 minutes or even longer for someone to try to disarm her? 

The evidence proves the phone was never hung up as Jeremy claimed.

The evidence proves the killer planned in advance and was carried out in cold and calculated manner, not by someone out of control.

What would set her off while everyone was sleeping anyway?

The evidence proves the killer started shooting in the master bedroom while the parents were still in bed.  Nevill only ran down to the kitchen a single time and had already been wounded and unable to speak by that time.

The evidence proves the gun had a suppressor attached when Sheila's fatal shot was delivered because there was no matter of any kind in the muzzle and there would have been. 

The evidence proves the particualar suppressor used is the one with the blood/paint.

There is no evidence that Sheila changed her clothing and took a bath nor is there any reason she would do so. You had to misrepresent the facts of another case falsely claiming a killer washed his car after murdering his family but prior to committing suicide to try to pretend there was a way.  The only clothing soaking was underwear and leggings not any blouses or nightgowns.  There is nothing to suggest Sheila changed her clothing and that clothing had no evidence at all of any gunshot residue.  She allegedly hugged the rifle to kill herself and still not a shred of GSR.  There would have to be some if she fired 2 shots in such manner and certainly if she fired 25 total.   

The evidence proves there was in fact a struggle in the kitchen and that the light was broken by the rifle having the suppressor attached because it would have been too short otherwise. 

There is a whole lot more evidence including Julie's claims and Jeremy's actions which make no sense.

You simply ignore it all and make up excuses, you are not interpreting the evidence differently you choose not to believe any of the evidence though you have no valid reason for not believing it and instead make up your own facts that have no evidentiary basis at all.

So at the end of the day you are guilty as charged.  You have blind faith in Jeremy for no reason you can justify on the basis of evidence and known facts. The lack of any basis for your beliefs is why it is called blind faith.

 


 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 11:43:14 PM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline John

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2014, 12:38:23 AM »
Tell me Holly, what is the one main factor which for you points to a miscarriage of justice in the Bamber case?
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2014, 01:33:09 PM »
Character assassination? He's a convicted child killer! I hardly think mentioning that he did lead an extravagant lifestyle in the weeks after the murders is character assassination.

I'm no fan of Sun journos either. But are you denying that someone tried to sell these photos on his behalf? Even the diehards on blue try to claim it was Brett Collins who tried to broker the deal.

Yes I fully accept that in the eyes of the law JB is a mass murderer/child killer.  My view is that a system, in this case the judicial, can call it wrong.  An analogy might be the financial system pre global financial crisis Sep/Oct 2008.  Prior to the trial I think JB suffered a character assassination:

- bully at school/broke a pupil's arm
- lazy
- greedy
- sexually promiscuous
- bisexual
- wore make-up
- was a b........ ie illegitimate
- didn't grieve appropriately in the eyes of others eg Barbara Wilson
- didn't attend young farmers club
- drove his cars fast
- was arrogant
- was cocky
- hated his parents/SC/the twins

In my opinion I find the above either benign or I simply don't believe the statements to be true.  I believe JB to be a regular main stream guy  with good and bad points like all of us.  I do not believe he has 'a side' or that there's anything whatsoever sinister about him.

Your words "he did lead an extravagant lifestyle in the weeks after the murders" are subjective.  What are we comparing it with?  How do we know if any of it is  true and accurate?  Even if true and accurate doesn't make him a murderer.  It was his money he earned from working at WHF to spend  as he saw fit.  He was a young guy from a middle class background and had surplus income in his pocket.  His accommodation,  fully expensed car and phone were paid for as part of his package for working at WHF.  He probably had most of his meals at WHF too. He would not have had access to his parent's estate for many months after meeting the inheritance tax bill and probate being granted. 


Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #52 on: April 04, 2014, 01:37:49 PM »
Tell me Holly, what is the one main factor which for you points to a miscarriage of justice in the Bamber case?

- June's mental illness 1959 requiring in-patient psychiatric care as a result of her decision to adopt SC

- SC in all likelihood suffering neglect and an attachment disorder as a result of the above

- The psychology of adoption

- Adoption reunions

 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #53 on: April 04, 2014, 01:51:58 PM »
Character assassination? He's a convicted child killer! I hardly think mentioning that he did lead an extravagant lifestyle in the weeks after the murders is character assassination.

I'm no fan of Sun journos either. But are you denying that someone tried to sell these photos on his behalf? Even the diehards on blue try to claim it was Brett Collins who tried to broker the deal.

Sorry I missed the bit about the photos in my previous post.  I must admit its not an area of the case I have spent much time mulling over as to my mind it is a moot point.  I understand BC or JB or both ? approached the Sun with a view to selling some porn photos of SC?  A meeting was arranged between Michael Fielder, BC and JB?  At some stage The Sun decided to take the moral high ground and reject the offer?  Perhaps others can fill me in on the details of what supposedly took place?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Angelo222

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #54 on: April 04, 2014, 03:22:37 PM »
Yes I fully accept that in the eyes of the law JB is a mass murderer/child killer.  My view is that a system, in this case the judicial, can call it wrong.  An analogy might be the financial system pre global financial crisis Sep/Oct 2008.  Prior to the trial I think JB suffered a character assassination:

- bully at school/broke a pupil's arm
- lazy
- greedy
- sexually promiscuous
- bisexual
- wore make-up
- was a b........ ie illegitimate
- didn't grieve appropriately in the eyes of others eg Barbara Wilson
- didn't attend young farmers club
- drove his cars fast
- was arrogant
- was cocky
- hated his parents/SC/the twins

In my opinion I find the above either benign or I simply don't believe the statements to be true.  I believe JB to be a regular main stream guy  with good and bad points like all of us.  I do not believe he has 'a side' or that there's anything whatsoever sinister about him.

Your words "he did lead an extravagant lifestyle in the weeks after the murders" are subjective.  What are we comparing it with?  How do we know if any of it is  true and accurate?  Even if true and accurate doesn't make him a murderer.  It was his money he earned from working at WHF to spend  as he saw fit.  He was a young guy from a middle class background and had surplus income in his pocket.  His accommodation,  fully expensed car and phone were paid for as part of his package for working at WHF.  He probably had most of his meals at WHF too. He would not have had access to his parent's estate for many months after meeting the inheritance tax bill and probate being granted.

What about his income from cannabis cultivation and selling?  Was that subjective too Holls?    @)(++(*
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Angelo222

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #55 on: April 04, 2014, 03:25:20 PM »
- June's mental illness 1959 requiring in-patient psychiatric care as a result of her decision to adopt SC

- SC in all likelihood suffering neglect and an attachment disorder as a result of the above

- The psychology of adoption

- Adoption reunions

So Jeremy is innocent because June and Sheila had mental health problems?  Wow!!!  That must be a first.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Angelo222

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2014, 03:29:29 PM »
Sorry I missed the bit about the photos in my previous post.  I must admit its not an area of the case I have spent much time mulling over as to my mind it is a moot point.  I understand BC or JB or both ? approached the Sun with a view to selling some porn photos of SC?  A meeting was arranged between Michael Fielder, BC and JB?  At some stage The Sun decided to take the moral high ground and reject the offer?  Perhaps others can fill me in on the details of what supposedly took place?

That's about right, the newspaper took the view that there was more mileage in the fact that Jeremy was trying to flog pictures of his sister than there was in the pictures on their own.  Do you find his actions despicable Holls?
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2014, 04:38:57 PM »
That's about right, the newspaper took the view that there was more mileage in the fact that Jeremy was trying to flog pictures of his sister than there was in the pictures on their own.  Do you find his actions despicable Holls?

Are these the photos that SC had taken in a friend's garden by an Australian photographer?  Once they were developed she realised she had misjudged and asked for the photos/negs back?  I don't understand why she wouldn't have destroyed them?  Why would she want them hanging around?  Anyway in answer to your question if the photos were of a pornographic nature and if the story is true then yes I think JB also misjudged.  If the photos amounted to glamour modelling then I guess the acid test might be would SC have wanted them in the public domain? 

The important thing for me in all of this is we have an adoptee ie SC who came from a birth family of academics and intellectuals. Who grew up in a middle class adoptive family home with all the advantages eg fee paying education and yet:

- expelled from school twice
- teenage pregnancies
- underachieved at school
- sacked from her job as trainee hairdresser
- married young which lasted only 2/3 years
- post-natal depression - difficulty bonding with own children
- misuse of recreational drugs
- struggled to find paid employment and resorted to the above, which she regretted, and waitressing in a    restaurant called School Dinners which by all accounts she hated
- low self-esteem
- serious mental illness

Imo all of the above were brought on by her early start in life:

Attachment disorder

http://www.attachmentexperts.com/whatisattachment.html

Neglect as a result of June's mental illness circa 1959 as a result of adopting SC

http://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/reports_and_working_papers/working_papers/wp12/

SC should have been removed from the Bamber's care and they should have been prevented from adopting any further children. 




Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #58 on: April 04, 2014, 04:47:06 PM »
What about his income from cannabis cultivation and selling?  Was that subjective too Holls?    @)(++(*

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/paul-mccartney-busted-growing-pot/

Sir Paul McCartney grew and until recently smoked weed regularly.  He is probably one of the most peace loving individuals every to walk the planet.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: New book "Blood Guilt: The White House Farm Murders" out soon.
« Reply #59 on: April 04, 2014, 05:16:59 PM »
So Jeremy is innocent because June and Sheila had mental health problems?  Wow!!!  That must be a first.

I don't believe June and SC's mental health problems were mutually exclusive. 

Really need the likes of Allan Schore and David Brodinsky to review the case histories of June and SC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Schore

http://www.fmhconsultants.com/about-david/

Anyway its Friday and I feel the pub calling  ?{)(** 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?