Were the White House Farm killings a Joint Enterprise?

[John]

I have just noticed a comment on twitter when someone posted that if Jeremy was guilty then Julie was also guilty by virtue of Joint Enterprise?

At least some of the deluded followers are now recognising that he is indeed guilty.  It was pointed out that Julie was a hundred miles away at the time of the murders so this must be something rather unique under Joint Enterprise.

What are your thoughts peeps?   8-)(--)

[only me]

It's a good question.  I want to say "no", because if she hadn't come forward in the end, things could have been very different.  Honestly, though...at the point my partner started experimenting with my sleeping tablets while talking about murdering his family would be the point that I would be taking a walk.  I don't know how I feel about her to be honest. 

I do understand that it is very hard to believe bad things about someone you love, so believing them capable of murder must be incredibly hard.  To believe them capable of shooting two little boys in their sleep must be unthinkable.

[abs]

IF Jeremy Bamber is behind the murders, Julie Mugford most certainly was in on it and knew they were going to take place. You'd have to think that she was incredibly daft not to recognize what was coming, after Jeremy allegedly talking about it to her for a year or so - and we all know that she is NOT unintelligent. According to her, she even got him sleeping pills for the purpose.

[Myster]

IF Jeremy Bamber is behind the murders, Julie Mugford most certainly was in on it and knew they were going to take place. You'd have to think that she was incredibly daft not to recognize what was coming, after Jeremy allegedly talking about it to her for a year or so - and we all know that she is NOT unintelligent. According to her, she even got him sleeping pills for the purpose.

It depends on whether you believe Julie Mugford's police statements below...,

On several occasions when his scheming was brought up in conversation, she asked him not to talk about it again.
As has been said many times before, she was obviously completely besotted with him.

[ActualMat]

The idea of a joint enterprise case is a very real one. It would have gone to court if things had turned out differently and the jury would of been faced with the question to answer as to whether if Julie was aware Jeremy was planning the criems, why didn't she speak up?

Did she not want to speak up?
Or did she not take him seriously?

[John]

You have to remember that Julie stated in her interview to police that Jeremy had been telling her for months that he wanted to get rid of his parents and had talked killing Sheila and the twins as well including burning down the farmhouse in order to get rid of evidence.  She claims that he later decided against this since to do so would have destroyed some very valuable antiques.

Julie insists that she told Jeremy to forget about doing such things and told him that she didn't want to hear such talk again. indeed, in the immediate lead up to the murders they appear to have not spoken about such matters.

Julie claims in her statement that following the murders she confronted Jeremy about what had just occurred and that it was then that he confessed to having arranged for a hitman to carry them out for £2000.  According to Julie he named his friend and associate Matthew MacDonald, a local plumber, as the hitman.

On the basis of this therefore, Julie cannot be blamed for something she did no know was going to happen. If she did not know he was going to commit murder that night she then cannot be consider an accomplice.

One must however ask the question, was she morally bound to inform Nevill and June Bamber in relation to how their son was behaving?

[ActualMat]

You have to remember that Julie stated in her interview to police that Jeremy had been telling her for months that he wanted to get rid of his parents and had talked killing Sheila and the twins as well including burning down the farmhouse in order to get rid of evidence.  She claims that he later decided against this since to do so would have destroyed some very valuable antiques.

Julie insists that she told Jeremy to forget about doing such things and told him that she didn't want to hear such talk again. indeed, in the immediate lead up to the murders they appear to have not spoken about such matters.

Julie claims in her statement that following the murders she confronted Jeremy about what had just occurred and that it was then that he confessed to having arranged for a hitman to carry them out for £2000.  According to Julie he named his friend and associate Matthew MacDonald, a local plumber, as the hitman.

On the basis of this therefore, Julie cannot be blamed for something she did no know was going to happen. If she did not know he was going to commit murder that night she then cannot be consider an accomplice.

One must however ask the question, was she morally bound to inform Nevill and June Bamber in relation to how their son was behaving?

Norally, maybe. But if she didn't fully believe he was going to kill them - going to speak to the parents and telling them that Jeremy was planning to kill them.....would be a big step. How would someone do that?

But as long as Jeremy didn't mention times and a date to Julie, and just kept talking asbout it over a long period of time I think she would have been fine and not been in any toruble.

[only me]

The idea of a joint enterprise case is a very real one. It would have gone to court if things had turned out differently and the jury would of been faced with the question to answer as to whether if Julie was aware Jeremy was planning the criems, why didn't she speak up?

Did she not want to speak up?
Or did she not take him seriously?

This is what I struggle with.  I know it's nowhere near on the scale of what happened at Whitehouse Farm, but I have been in the position where someone I was friends/colleagues with was basically admitted to me and others that he was abusing his wife and nobody believed him.  Nobody.  He was funny, intelligent, a great worker and always ready to listen to people - everyone trusted him.  He ended up being arrested and imprisoned after he tried to strangle her, and I've never forgiven myself for not doing something.  It's incredibly hard to explain, especially on a forum, but we're talking about 15-20 people that were completely suckered by him.  I don't believe he was a psychopath, which seems to be the go-to explanation for this kind of behaviour, but I do believe he had a personality disorder of some type which allowed him to rationalise his behaviour.  This is part of the problem I have with Jeremy Bamber - people want to talk in absolutes about whether he is a psychopath but unfortunately there are shades of grey with psychological disorders, and they can't be diagnosed on a forum.  It's no good telling me what Psychiatrists DIDN'T say about him - I want to know what they DID say.  OK, he may not be a psychopath but does he suffer from another personality disorder? 

In short, I believe that JB could have flatly told JM that he was going to kill his family and shown her bullets with their names engraved on them.  Whether she could bring herself to believe he was going to do it is a different matter altogether.

[abs]

As I said above, it is a serious, palpable and PROACTIVE thing to get Jeremy pills, when he, alledgedly, had been talking about killing his family.
I also have a problem with Julie´s non-reaction when Jeremy supposedly said: "Tonight is the night." And later, when he called her in the middle of the night and said that something was wrong at the farmhouse. "Go back to bed." was Julie´s reaction. THAT I do not understand, and besides, what Jeremy said according to Julie, makes no sense at all. (Sorry, don´t remember verbatim - too wasted from work to look it up,) That whole scenario seems so unrealistic.

[John]

As I said above, it is a serious, palpable and PROACTIVE thing to get Jeremy pills, when he, alledgedly, had been talking about killing his family.
I also have a problem with Julie´s non-reaction when Jeremy supposedly said: "Tonight is the night." And later, when he called her in the middle of the night and said that something was wrong at the farmhouse. "Go back to bed." was Julie´s reaction. THAT I do not understand, and besides, what Jeremy said according to Julie, makes no sense at all. (Sorry, don´t remember verbatim - too wasted from work to look it up,) That whole scenario seems so unrealistic.

Abs...we know that if the pills had been for herself Julie would have taken them with her to London instead of leaving them at the cottage in Goldhanger.

It was Julie's position that she got the tranquillisers from her GP effectively for Jeremy and not as some means to assist him to murder his family.  She states in her interview that she was taken aback when he told her that he had been testing them out to see how effective they would be.

The "tonight's the night" comment doesn't bother me.  It was late in the evening and they would have been tired.  I am quite sure Julie thought he was on one of his rants again.  This is borne out by her "go back to bed" comment when he telephoned her just after 3am with the news that something was happening at the farm. What a strange thing to say?  Jeremy claims that his father didn't even telephone him until nearly 3.15am so how could he possibly know there was something wrong at the farm some ten minutes before he even heard from his father.  I am not in the least surprised that jeremy got the timings mixed up and had to change his story when speaking to the police. Liars are always found out in the end.

Bottom line is Julie never took him seriously, she probably thought to herself...nice boy, plenty of prospects but not much going on up top!

She told him to go back to bed...she did not tell him to commit murder.  It was academic however at that point since he had already done it.

[abs]

Bottom line is Julie never took him seriously, she probably thought to herself...nice boy, plenty of prospects but not much going on up top!

Also after the fact? When she went on trips with him, slept with him, accepted gifts from him and chose to say NOTHING for such a long time, even after seeing the dead bodies at the morgue?!
One strange girl, is all I can say then!!

[John]

I completely agree...after the fact.

What the hell was she thinking protecting him for so long?   8-)(--)

[ActualMat]

Maybe it took her a long time to actually beleive herself he'd done it, he'd mentioned a hit man to her - I'm sure she was confused and wondered if he could actually have done it or has something else happened with Jeremy's knowledge - also who would believe her? 27 years on some people still do not believe her.

[abs]

She has lied about some things, that is a proven fact, so maybe it is not so strange that some have trouble believing her at all.

[starryian]

The idea of a joint enterprise case is a very real one. It would have gone to court if things had turned out differently and the jury would of been faced with the question to answer as to whether if Julie was aware Jeremy was planning the criems, why didn't she speak up?

Did she not want to speak up?
Or did she not take him seriously?

This is what I struggle with.  I know it's nowhere near on the scale of what happened at Whitehouse Farm, but I have been in the position where someone I was friends/colleagues with was basically admitted to me and others that he was abusing his wife and nobody believed him.  Nobody.  He was funny, intelligent, a great worker and always ready to listen to people - everyone trusted him.  He ended up being arrested and imprisoned after he tried to strangle her, and I've never forgiven myself for not doing something.  It's incredibly hard to explain, especially on a forum, but we're talking about 15-20 people that were completely suckered by him.  I don't believe he was a psychopath, which seems to be the go-to explanation for this kind of behaviour, but I do believe he had a personality disorder of some type which allowed him to rationalise his behaviour.  This is part of the problem I have with Jeremy Bamber - people want to talk in absolutes about whether he is a psychopath but unfortunately there are shades of grey with psychological disorders, and they can't be diagnosed on a forum.  It's no good telling me what Psychiatrists DIDN'T say about him - I want to know what they DID say.  OK, he may not be a psychopath but does he suffer from another personality disorder? 

In short, I believe that JB could have flatly told JM that he was going to kill his family and shown her bullets with their names engraved on them.  Whether she could bring herself to believe he was going to do it is a different matter altogether.

I am intrigued to know why you believe that Bamber was NOT a psychopath when all the evidence points to the notion that he is. As an ex health professional it struck me that alot of people have entirely the wrong impression of a psychopath and how a psychopath thinks.. Most envision a typical psychopath to be either a deranged serial killer or a dribbling mad man or somewhere in between. Of course both of these are correct but only a small fraction are actually of this rather obvious type. A psychopath by there very nature must be almost chamelion-like and blend-in seemlessly into the environment. They must have the ability to manipulate and con others. Therefore they are adept at building up trust, giving out complements to others, pushing the right buttons, all in order for them to get out of you what they want.
Most commonly, a typical psychopath will never kill anyone, but inevitably will destroy many lives and leave a trail of devastation in their wake in both the workplace and at home. Their motives are usually money and power but it could also be other evil endevours such as systematically destroying a work colleague psychologically . From this the work-place psychopath derives great pleasure and a feeling of power.
Bamber is of the small percentage of psychopaths that can and do commit murder in order to get what they want. The lives he took meant nothing to him, he gave it no more thought than the average person would give by stepping on an ant. Bamber has absolutely no conscience and therefore he is incapable of remorse, sympathy or empathy for the innocent victims of his crimes. Most psychopaths, although without a conscience may think twice about undertaking a crime so dastardly and dispicable as the one Bamber committed. Not because they have any compassion for their victims , or lack the necessary ruthlessness to commit such a heinous act but rather they would be concerned about the punishment meted out for such a crime. Bamber has an element to his psychopathy common to murderous psychopaths - recklessness and impulsivity. Put simply, Bamber cannot think through the implications of his acts; not only on other people, but on himself.
It is estimated than 1 in 50 people display some form of psychopathy and 1 person in 100 has dangerous psychopathic traits. However, it it difficult to research for obvious reasons.
I am sure this sentence will appeal to the narcissistic element of Bamber's personality - but he is quite unique. Thankfully there are few quite like Jeremy Bamber. To my mind he is a murdering, scheming, cold-blooded psychopath. There is NO other type of personality disorder that would even come close to giving an explanation for Bamber's utter callous, deceiptive, cunning, glib, superficial, manipulative, arrogant, sense of entitlement, greedy and murderous personality. He is what he is............a narcissistic psychopath.