Author Topic: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.  (Read 50519 times)

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Offline Tim Invictus

The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« on: June 10, 2014, 09:44:34 PM »
Holly do you really believe Neville called Jeremy to tell him Sheila had gone nuts with a gun? Presumably you think Neville wanted Jeremy's help?

 8-)(--)

A 6ft4", 14 stone, 61 year old working farmer who is an ex-RAF wartime fighter pilot needed help from his wayward, nail varnish wearing, totally unreliable son! Do you really believe Neville would leave his grandsons and wife in danger to try and phone his son who would take at least 20 mins or so to get there?

Neville would easily have dealt with Sheila .... he put up a huge fight with Jeremy with we believe 4 bullets in him already!

The story is preposterous .... imho!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 03:16:29 AM by John »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 05:22:46 PM »
Holly do you really believe Neville called Jeremy to tell him Sheila had gone nuts with a gun? Presumably you think Neville wanted Jeremy's help?

 8-)(--)

A 6ft4", 14 stone, 61 year old working farmer who is an ex-RAF wartime fighter pilot needed help from his wayward, nail varnish wearing, totally unreliable son! Do you really believe Neville would leave his grandsons and wife in danger to try and phone his son who would take at least 20 mins or so to get there?

Neville would easily have dealt with Sheila .... he put up a huge fight with Jeremy with we believe 4 bullets in him already!

The story is preposterous .... imho!

I firmly believe NB did call JB.  The reasons I think this is that:

1. NB had a low opinion of the police as stated in RB's WS

"he (NB) commented that if they were like the police at Witham they were no more good than Dad's Army":

(bottom of 1st, top of 2nd)

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1651

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1652

2. The Bambers were private people as stated in CC's book:

"One of the most striking things about that day, although not altogether surprising for me, was the fact that, the more I talked to June and Nevill's relations, the more I realised none of them actually knew anything had been seriously wrong with Bambs - not even June's sister Pam.  Many of them said that had they known, they would have been more than willing to help and share the burden.  Why hadn't I contacted them and told them all about it?  I couldn't believe what I was hearing and could only reply by saying that I didn't feel it had been my business to betray the Bamber's confidence.  They were very private people whose decisions I had to respect - whether right or wrong.  These people had no idea how much I'd need them as allies to convince June and Nevill of how strongly I felt Bamb's treatment should have been changed".

Why would NB call out EP who he likened to Dad's Army when he could call up JB who he had largely shaped and developed with the help of Gresham school?  I think NB saw JB as a more reliable and capable source of assistance than EP, with the added benefit of privacy.  I don't buy into NB and JB having anything other than a normal father/son relationship.  I don't buy into any of the Bamber family members having abnormal relationships other than that between June and SC. In any event it is not clear what help NB required: distraction, disarming, confirmation for SC that there was no intention of uprooting her from London against her will etc, etc.

I don't believe there was any fight in the kitchen with anyone.  I think the 4/5 gunshot wounds NB received upstairs (bedroom/stairs) rendered his completely defenceless against anyone by the time he reached the kitchen.  I was reading some back posts a while back and I know your views on this conflict strongly with mine Tim so we will have to agree to disagree.  In fact you stated that you place a lot of weight on this aspect of the case more so than the silencer and JM.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2014, 05:54:56 PM »
What happened here Holly... was it a chimps' tea party, did Sheila Caffell rearrange the furniture to make it look like somebody had fought with Nevill, or was this the usual way the Bambers left the kitchen before retiring to bed?



Those links are useless unless you're a member. You must be able to see them if they're on your computer, so upload them here and let's all have a look.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 08:05:54 PM »
What happened here Holly... was it a chimps' tea party, did Sheila Caffell rearrange the furniture to make it look like somebody had fought with Nevill, or was this the usual way the Bambers left the kitchen before retiring to bed?



Those links are useless unless you're a member. You must be able to see them if they're on your computer, so upload them here and let's all have a look.

What is the debris behind the open door?  And clutter on the dresser?  WHF doesn't look very tidy and clutter free in any event but then you're talking to an OCD sufferer  @)(++(* So take the unrelated debris and clutter out of the equation and to my eye the table settings look dishevelled, bit of broken crockery on the floor, two upturned stools and an upturned chair.  As many have pointed out NB was a big, strong man and if he stumbled into the table and upturned chair/stools before finding himself in his favourite chair I think this could explain the appearance of the kitchen?  NB received 4/5 gunshot wounds upstairs.  He was losing blood fast both internally and externally and in great pain.  Once at the foot of the stairs how did he end up in his favourite chair?  I don't believe there was any struggle but poor NB must surely have been in shock and stumbling around.  The shots he received upstairs would have killed him had the downstairs shots not done so before.

If some major struggle took place between NB and JB or SC fighting over the gun then I am surprised the two buckets situated near the sink containing bloody water and clothing didn't get knocked over? 

I just copied the links from an old post of mine which I have access to as a guest.  I thought you guys were all non-posting members and therefore had access to the library/archives on Blue.  Obviously not so I will ask a Bluie friend if they can help and lift them over here  8(0(*
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 09:08:44 PM »
All the debris is on staircase S2 in the Ground Floor plan which looks like it served as a glory hole where the family's odds and ends were stored, behind a door which could seal it all off and which was later opened by the TFU during the initial search. I think normal kitchen phone was hidden under some newspapers/magazines on the Welsh Dresser bottom shelf.

The two buckets were in one corner out of harm's way so unlikely to have been knocked over, imo.

I don't think Nevill ever got the chance to sit down in his favourite chair. He lost his balance during the struggle and ended up where he was found - straddling the spindle back of it with his left leg supported by a woven dog bed.

If there was no struggle/fight why did Sheila feel the need to batter the rifle butt against some immovable object in the kitchen with such tremendous force that a piece was broken off it?   Or for that matter use the rifle end to shatter the glass light shade?

Piece of rifle butt in front of cushions.


« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 08:40:56 AM by Myster »
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2014, 06:15:58 PM »
I firmly believe NB did call JB.  The reasons I think this is that:

1. NB had a low opinion of the police as stated in RB's WS

"he (NB) commented that if they were like the police at Witham they were no more good than Dad's Army":

(bottom of 1st, top of 2nd)

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1651

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1652

2. The Bambers were private people as stated in CC's book:

"One of the most striking things about that day, although not altogether surprising for me, was the fact that, the more I talked to June and Nevill's relations, the more I realised none of them actually knew anything had been seriously wrong with Bambs - not even June's sister Pam.  Many of them said that had they known, they would have been more than willing to help and share the burden.  Why hadn't I contacted them and told them all about it?  I couldn't believe what I was hearing and could only reply by saying that I didn't feel it had been my business to betray the Bamber's confidence.  They were very private people whose decisions I had to respect - whether right or wrong.  These people had no idea how much I'd need them as allies to convince June and Nevill of how strongly I felt Bamb's treatment should have been changed".

Why would NB call out EP who he likened to Dad's Army when he could call up JB who he had largely shaped and developed with the help of Gresham school?  I think NB saw JB as a more reliable and capable source of assistance than EP, with the added benefit of privacy.  I don't buy into NB and JB having anything other than a normal father/son relationship.  I don't buy into any of the Bamber family members having abnormal relationships other than that between June and SC. In any event it is not clear what help NB required: distraction, disarming, confirmation for SC that there was no intention of uprooting her from London against her will etc, etc.

None of which addresses the questions asked of how he would have the opportunity to call Jeremy let alone a reason.

The shooting started in the bedroom.  There was no phone there and the killer opened fire on both parents.

There was no occasion to call Jeremy let alone a reason.

The evidence Jeremy called himself:

1) Nevill had no opportunity to call

A) The killer entered the bedroom and shot both parents a combined 11 times, there was no phone in the bedroom to use prior to the killer opening fire.  All admit he didn't call after the shooting started because he could not speak and would have announced she had been shooting if that were the case. 

B) There is no evidence at all that anything happened prior to the killer entering the bedroom to shoot the parents.  The claim that the killer had Nevill downstairs not only is not supported by any evidence but makes no sense.  If SHeila were having delusions she would not make a conscious decision to allow him to use th ephone, fail to shoot him while he was on the phone and then march him upstairs to shoot him in the bedroom with his wife.  The tale makes no sense at all from the alleged standpoint of Sheila in a crazy rage and there is not a shred of evidence any such thing happened. Nevill woudl not have been given any opportunity to use the phone is the bottom line.

2) Even if by some miracle Nevill were given the opportunity to use the phone he had no reason to call Jeremy

A) Nevill was bigger and stronger than Jeremy so had a better physical ability than Jeremy to disarm Sheila

B) Nevill was in a position to disarm Sheila and had the necessity to do so, Jeremy would take 20 minutes or more to arrive.  Why would he wait 20 minutes hoping Jeremy would arrive in time to disarm her instead of doing it himself?

C) Sheila and Jeremy did not get along.  Seeing Jeremy would make things worse not better.  The person with the calming effect on her an dbest chance of disarming her peacably was Nevill. 

D) Jeremy had an answering machine and kept the phone on the bottom floor. Chances are the phone would not wake him up even if it rang incessantly and even if it did wake him he would take several minutes to reach the phone. The answering machine would pick up after 4-6 rings rings.  So Nevill could at best expect to leave a message on an answering machine that might not be listened to until many hours later.

E) If Nevill was too worried to disarm her with his bare hands and truly in fear why would he risk being shot by sitting on the phone where he would be a dead duck if she caught him?  It would take several minutes for Jeremy to answer and he would be an easy target the entire time.  If truly in fear for his safety then he would have armed himself.  There were guns, knives and other potential weapons that he would have grabbed if he had been left alone in the kitchen.

F) If too panicked to do anything himself he would have called police not put his son in harms way if he saw a real threat.  So Nevill would not have called anyone unless he saw a real threat that he could not handle himself and for a threat that great he would not call Jeremy he would call police. 

3) Jeremy lied about the phone being disconnected and being able to immediately use it

4) Sheila didn't beat or kill anyone else or even load the gun

A) Sheila would have had elevated lead levels on her hands had she loaded the bullets in the gun as claimed and in a frenzy loading fast would also have damaged at least the nail of the finger she used to push the bullets in the magazine

B) Sheila would have had back spatter of Nevill's blood on her body had she been the one who delivered the blows to Nevill in the kitchen.  She also would have broken several nails by beating him so severely.  The rifle stock broke and his head bashed in.  One has to hold the rifle tightly to do this and when a rifle hits something hard there is a jolt to the person wielding it. The notion her nails would not have been touched is preposterous.  She also would have cut her feet on the crockery on the floor of the kitchen and been likely to get step in blood or sugar. 

C) The killer of the other 4 victims would have had high velocity back spatter as well as gunshot residue on the killer's body and clothing.  She had neither.

D) There is no evidence at all to suggest she would be at risk for any delusions around 2:30 AM.  Had she stopped taking her medication or were high on narcotics or drunk she could be at risk but none of these things were the case. Moreover, because of everyone else was sleeping there would be no risk of them causing agitaiton.

5) Sheila didn't kill herself

A) She was killed with the suppressor attached to the gun and could not have put it away after her death and could only have potentially killed herself with the suppressor if she stepped on the trigger with her toe but was seated when she was shot not standing.

B) Sheila was seated when killed and then moved flat shortly thereafter by someone else who moved her body flat.  She can't have moved her own body after she was dead.  Once flat blood dripped down the side of her neck and pooled on the floor.

C) The bible was placed in the pool of blood then repeatedly opened and closed while the blood was still wet.  She could not have done these things since she was dead.

6) The evidence thus establishes that Sheila didn't do anything but rather was framed. There is substantial evidence that th eperson who framed her was Jeremy and this fake phone call is one of the ways he attempted to frame her.  Since she didn't do anything the claim Nevill called to say she did is sheer nonsense.  Jeremy lied about many things including telling police Sheila had fired all the guns in the house and had gone shooting with him.  He admitted later he hadn't seen her shoot a gun.

What evidence is there that Nevill made this call? None.

The evidence is that someone made a call to Goldhanger, the phone was hung up at Goldhanger but never hung up at WHF and remained off the hook from the point of dialing until after police entered and hung the phone up.


« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 05:31:27 AM by John »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2014, 10:12:45 AM »
All the debris is on staircase S2 in the Ground Floor plan which looks like it served as a glory hole where the family's odds and ends were stored, behind a door which could seal it all off and which was later opened by the TFU during the initial search. I think normal kitchen phone was hidden under some newspapers/magazines on the Welsh Dresser bottom shelf.

The two buckets were in one corner out of harm's way so unlikely to have been knocked over, imo.

I don't think Nevill ever got the chance to sit down in his favourite chair. He lost his balance during the struggle and ended up where he was found - straddling the spindle back of it with his left leg supported by a woven dog bed.

If there was no struggle/fight why did Sheila feel the need to batter the rifle butt against some immovable object in the kitchen with such tremendous force that a piece was broken off it?   Or for that matter use the rifle end to shatter the glass light shade?

Piece of rifle butt in front of cushions.




Is it possible the lampshade and butt end broke if the gun was used to inflict blows on poor NB once in the chair?  As I understand it the butt end is often a separate piece to the main butt?  I am hopeless at interpreting pics but to my eye the rifle found on SC as per soc pics looks to have an in tact butt end  8-)(--)
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2014, 05:53:02 PM »
Is it possible the lampshade and butt end broke if the gun was used to inflict blows on poor NB once in the chair?  As I understand it the butt end is often a separate piece to the main butt?  I am hopeless at interpreting pics but to my eye the rifle found on SC as per soc pics looks to have an in tact butt end  8-)(--)

The thing at the end is called a butt plate.  The stock cracked not the butt plate. A butt plate can be made of metal, rubber, bakelite, resin, or plastic. How strong and flexible they are will depend on age among other things.  Over time they dry out and become lex flexible and more brittle.

When you batter someone or something with the butt of the rifle the wood runs the risk of splitting and did split in 1 place.  The split is at the top of the stock where the stock meets the metal part of the rifle.

When you batter someone or something with the stock you are jabbing the stock into them/it.  So imagine someone holding the gun in two hands with the barrel over their shoulder facing in back of them and the butt facing forward.  They smash the butt into something for instance a wall. 

This action makes the narrow portion of the wooden stock crash against the metal of the rifle.

Because the wood is so narrow there it is the weakest part.  The wood can split in the process especially if the wood has any natural defects.

That is what happened the stress of the battering caused it to split at the top.  It is not a gouge that occurred from the side the stock hitting something.  The wood split as it was slamming into the metal part of the rifle.

 


 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Myster

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2014, 07:26:27 PM »
Is it possible the lampshade and butt end broke if the gun was used to inflict blows on poor NB once in the chair?  As I understand it the butt end is often a separate piece to the main butt?  I am hopeless at interpreting pics but to my eye the rifle found on SC as per soc pics looks to have an in tact butt end  8-)(--)

A = Internally threaded boss of the metal "firing bolt/bullet" housing (34) to which the wooden rifle stock (35) is fixed using bolt (32). The broken-off piece is scooped out in the centre as it appears in the CS photograph to accommodate the boss and thus allow for the insertion of bolt (32) through the stock (35).

B = Part of the rifle butt which was damaged.

Anschutz 525 exploded diagram.


Official photo of the damaged part of the stock compared with an intact one.




Scipio and I disagree on this, but my view is that to break a piece off would involve hitting a solid object very forcefully such as the floor, table, worktop, chair or possibly the AGA towel rail, rather than a pliable giving human body. In other words when the fight was taking place a blow missed the intended soft target, and hit something hard instead. Unless of course the stock was previously damaged and weakened in that area.

If as you say, there was no fight and Nevill Bamber was by that time incapable of putting up any resistance, would there be any need for the assailant to inflict more heavy blows and in the process catch and break the lampshade when all it required was a bullet reload to finish the task?

It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Tim Invictus

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2014, 07:48:10 PM »
I doubt the stock was previously damaged, the rifle was almost new. 

It is possible the stock was broken by a forceful forward poke of the rifle barrel as Bamber was trying to fend of Neville while of bullets. The but butted (!) up to the metal stock where the damaged area is; the stock being pushed back hard could have caused that.

Perhaps when Bamber confesses he will publish such details!


Offline Myster

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2014, 09:16:24 PM »
I doubt the stock was previously damaged, the rifle was almost new. 

It is possible the stock was broken by a forceful forward poke of the rifle barrel as Bamber was trying to fend of Neville while of bullets. The but butted (!) up to the metal stock where the damaged area is; the stock being pushed back hard could have caused that.

About nine or ten months old, but look at how scratched the wooden stock is if you enlarge the CS photo. I don't think these are scratches on the actual colour photo itself though. Might have had some rough treatment enough to weaken it in the field during that period... guess we'll never know.

It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline John

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2014, 05:18:13 AM »
I don't believe there was any fight in the kitchen with anyone.  I think the 4/5 gunshot wounds NB received upstairs (bedroom/stairs) rendered his completely defenceless against anyone by the time he reached the kitchen.  I was reading some back posts a while back and I know your views on this conflict strongly with mine Tim so we will have to agree to disagree.  In fact you stated that you place a lot of weight on this aspect of the case more so than the silencer and JM.

The evidence of a fight in the kitchen is significant, the overturned chairs and crockery, the smashed lampshade, the marks left by the rifle barrel on the underside of the mantelpiece, the bruising to Neville's face etc etc...   
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 07:54:42 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2014, 11:56:43 AM »
A = Internally threaded boss of the metal "firing bolt/bullet" housing (34) to which the wooden rifle stock (35) is fixed using bolt (32). The broken-off piece is scooped out in the centre as it appears in the CS photograph to accommodate the boss and thus allow for the insertion of bolt (32) through the stock (35).

B = Part of the rifle butt which was damaged.

Anschutz 525 exploded diagram.


Official photo of the damaged part of the stock compared with an intact one.




Scipio and I disagree on this, but my view is that to break a piece off would involve hitting a solid object very forcefully such as the floor, table, worktop, chair or possibly the AGA towel rail, rather than a pliable giving human body. In other words when the fight was taking place a blow missed the intended soft target, and hit something hard instead. Unless of course the stock was previously damaged and weakened in that area.

If as you say, there was no fight and Nevill Bamber was by that time incapable of putting up any resistance, would there be any need for the assailant to inflict more heavy blows and in the process catch and break the lampshade when all it required was a bullet reload to finish the task?

Thank you Myster.  You are brill with the images and explaining things  8((()*/

I wonder if the broken part of the butt was forensically examined to establish what it may have come into contact with: ceiling, aga, furniture, carpet fibres, biological matter etc?  If it was used to hit NB and came into contact with bone would this not be strong enough to cause the broken butt? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2014, 02:35:34 PM »
The evidence of a fight in the kitchen is significant, the overturned chairs and crockery, the smashed lampshade, the marks left by the rifle barrel on the underside of the mantelpiece, the bruising to Neville's face etc etc...   

John/Scipio 

As far as I can see the soc photos show an upturned chair (single) and two upturned small stools (which look like they may have been used by the twins).  I think if NB stumbled into the chairs/stools/table this could account for the upturned furniture and broken crockery.  If the gun was swung around like a golf club then I guess this could account for the lampshade.  Re the aga, as you might imagine, I tend to run with Peter Sutherst's expert evidence although I accept that the CCRC's expert countered this.  I believe CC's WS refers to SC as throwing pots and pans.

Scipio

The other day, according to you, I had mental health issues and needed a shrink on the basis that I said I would not want to knowingly live in a home where mass murders took place!  Now, again according to you, I have severe emotional scars as a result of being adopted and on the basis that I have made posts regarding the psychology of adoption and how this may have played a part in the WHF case.  Although I think this is a feature of the case I don't think adoption is as important as the likely adverse effects of June's mental illness circa 1959 on SC.  Of course it is clear for all to see you are a well-rounded individual!  You might be interested in knowing that most of the studies and research about adoption have been produced by psychologists and psychiatrists hailing from your great country:

David Brodzinsky

Harold Grotevant

Marshall Schechter

Nancy Verrier

David Kerschner

We have nothing like this in the UK:

http://www.b......s.org/

We don't need to as England unsealed the records in 1976.  Despite your country claiming to be "Leader Of The Free World" those American states who uphold 'sealed records' are the only places in the world who continue to do so.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 07:53:49 PM by John »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2014, 05:50:06 PM »
The link doesn't work unless you want to donate a car  8((()*/ or you've got a bad credit rating.  8(8-))
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.