The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.

[scipio_usmc]

If what you claim is correct, I find it difficult to comprehend how an item of evidence could find its way into a police museum when further testing was inevitable.  That is unless it has been accepted that the rifle and sound moderator has been so contaminated so as to be beyond any further use as evidence.

I disagree that testing of it in the future would be inevitable.  I see no value at all in testing it, there is little significance given the uncareful handling of it at trial. 

At any rate Jeremy supporters claim it is in a museum and that it had been on exhibit in Derby among other places.  It is not at the EP museum because I checked that early on.  If they are totally full of crap then I have no idea what they could have gained from such a lie.  If it is still in police custody along with the moderator I sitll se eno use at all either can potentially serve at this late date.

[Holly Goodhead]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this and I think this is an appropriate place to post about SC's fingernails. 

It is often stated that had SC been responsible this would have resulted in damage to her fingernails, which were found to be intact.  This was the official line by the prosecution as per CoA doc.  Others are on record supporting this eg David Boutflour in the ITV docu. 

Dr Vanezis did not want to commit to stating whether or not loading and firing the rifle would result in nail damage. He said it was the province of ballistics.  As far as I am aware no evidence exists to support of reject the prosecution's claim? 

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18124332.600-fingernails-have-the-strength-of-hooves.html

Prof Ennos is now at the university of Hull 

[Myster]

A light bulb (enclosed by a glass shade at the time) hanging in WHF kitchen, not much higher than the top of the red AGA surround.  Compare the height of the door to that of person of average height. The shade easily reached and caught by the end of a rifle being waved about, once the table had been pushed towards the Welsh Dresser during a struggle... no need for pedantry about the exact distance of the shade from the floor to be measured in mm.

[Holly Goodhead]

A light bulb (enclosed by a glass shade at the time) hanging in WHF kitchen, not much higher than the top of the red AGA surround.  Compare the height of the door to that of person of average height. The shade easily reached and caught by the end of a rifle being waved about, once the table had been pushed towards the Welsh Dresser during a struggle... no need for pedantry about the exact distance of the shade from the floor to be measured in mm.

I agree that there's no need for pedantry in terms of a person of average height being able to reach the glass lampshade, enclosing the hanging bulb, with the rifle assuming no optical illusions exist in the photo.  If you take a ruler and measure certain things I think some optical illusions are at play though?  However I thought we were trying to determine whether the rifle alone was long enough without silencer and also whether we could rule SC in or out based on the fact that she was shorter in height than JB?  I have seen arguments here and elsewhere stating SC was not tall enough to reach the lampshade.  And that the silencer must have been attached as the rifle alone was not long enough. If someone wishes to make these sorts of assertions then as far as I can see it is necessary to have precise measurements otherwise it is just guesswork?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4744.msg172841#msg172841

[Myster]

I think either Jeremy Bamber or Sheila Caffell (with arms extended upwards) could have reached the shade while holding the 50" long Anschutz, even without a 7" moderator fitted. My theory is that the shade shattered because the rifle was drawn backwards in an attempt to stop Nevill getting hold of it, or to get enough force behind it to strike a blow at him. Or even that Jeremy Bamber lost his balance and fell back towards the table while holding the rifle with arms raised.

My argument was that a struggle/fight of some sort occured in the kitchen which resulted in the lampshade getting broken, when you were arguing that nothing of the kind took place and that Nevill alone stumbled about pushing the table, upsetting all the crockery on it and knocking over numerous chairs and stools.

Examine the length of the unmoderated Anschutz this policeman is holding and imagine if he was flailing it about in WHF kitchen with arms raised above his head... do you think he could have hit the shade easily?



I do believe the moderator was fitted though, making it even more certain that the rifle broke the shade and which also caused the scratch marks under the mantle-shelf, whereas you think that it was a deliberate fix and plant by the rest of the family in an attempt to implicate Jeremy Bamber for the murders.

[Myster]

Prof Ennos is now at the university of Hull 

That research story smells fishy to me... just like the city of your Alma mater?  &%+((£

[Holly Goodhead]

That research story smells fishy to me... just like the city of your Alma mater?  &%+((£

http://www2.hull.ac.uk/science/bbes/ourstaff/academicstaff/profrolandennos.aspx 

[Myster]

I know he's genuine as is the story, but you put a  after the University of Hull as if the place was an old stamping ground of yours!  Does Hull still smell of fish or have they cured it?

[Holly Goodhead]

I know he's genuine as is the story, but you put a  after the University of Hull as if the place was an old stamping ground of yours!  Does Hull still smell of fish or have they cured it?

The  was to imply that I had been in touch with Prof Ennos (I haven't).

Do I sound like I hang out in Hull?  Huh [hands on hips] 

Man goes into a vets in Hull, with his cat in a basket.
 "Is it a tom?" asked the vet.
 "Nay lad, 'ave got it ere in't basket".

[Myster]

Only a Yorkshire lass like Andy would get that, although I just managed to fathom it as a Lanky lad. Scipio would have no chance!

But to get back to your nail argument... do you know if Sheila was anaemic (through menses) at the time, because that could have made her nails brittle, fragile and thus more easily broken if she'd attempted to load any bullets?

[Holly Goodhead]

Only a Yorkshire lass like Andy would get that, although I just managed to fathom it as a Lanky lad. Scipio would have no chance!

But to get back to your nail argument... do you know if Sheila was anaemic (through menses) at the time, because that could have made her nails brittle, fragile and thus more easily broken if she'd attempted to load any bullets?

The pathology reports describes SC as "well nourished".  I assume if she was anaemic she would not be described as "well nourished"?

As far as I am aware SC was physically healthy.  Her medi records only show minor ailments: chest infection/congestion, thrush/candida and acne.  I assume if she suffered with heavy periods so much that she became anaemic it would appear on her medi records?

Even without my recent link I have always thought the nail argument weak at best.  Surely you must have observed women in your life carry out all manner of activities with long fingernails which hasn't resulted in damage?  I just don't see that loading and firing a rifle is any more or less hazardous than loads of other activities women with long fingernails carry out on a daily basis.   

This certainly isn't aimed at you Myster, or anyone in particular, but I do think this whole nail argument smacks a bit of sexism eg 'oh be careful you don't break a nail'.  Which in days gone by is something a man would say to a woman if she was found to be doing just about anything other than sitting pretty.  I also think there's a perception that as SC was an attractive woman suffering from mental illness she was a bit of an air head.  Her best friend as per Wilkes book:

Her best friend, Caroline Elston herself educated to degree level @ Liverpool uni, said "Those who thought Sheila was stupid were wrong she was not".  She also said Sheila was talkative and was able to talk about anything (Wilkes book).

SC's maternal birth family (grandfather and uncle that I know of) were/are academics and NB and June appear to have been of above average intelligence.  Coupled with the fact that SC was privately educated ie smaller class sizes etc I just don't buy into SC being anything other than an intelligent woman more than capable of picking up a rifle and loading and firing it without causing damage to her long fingernails.

[Myster]

Well-nourished usually refers to the person being of normal or above average weight, rather than skinny or anorexic.

No, the women I've known closely are not model types who spend a lot of their time preening themselves. They've all been practically inclined with shortish nails. My mother had koilonychia for several years, which made her nails very brittle until her doctor diagnosed pernicious anaemia and prescribed iron dextran and cyanocobalamin by injection. But even mild anaemia can affect nail strength, and this may have been present but not picked up on by Sheila's doctor.

All we have is a very blurry image of her long polished nails, and the pathologist's statement that they were undamaged, unless there are other pictures you know of. If photos of her clean feet taken during post-mortem have turned up, other clearer shots of her hands and nails could exist which only the police, pathologist and lawyers have seen.

I've no doubt that Sheila might have been able to load the magazine, possibly without damaging her nails... if, but only if she'd been shown how to and was very familiar with the procedure, but according to her husband she hated guns and never used them. Whether she could have done this under the extreme pressure and speed required during an assassination without damaging any of them is unlikely in my opinion.

It was Sandra not Caroline Elston who also said that Sheila was lacking in confidence, gullible and insecure so she always seeking reassurance.

[Holly Goodhead]

Well-nourished usually refers to the person being of normal or above average weight, rather than skinny or anorexic.

No, the women I've known closely are not model types who spend a lot of their time preening themselves. They've all been practically inclined with shortish nails. My mother had koilonychia for several years, which made her nails very brittle until her doctor diagnosed pernicious anaemia and prescribed iron dextran and cyanocobalamin by injection. But even mild anaemia can affect nail strength, and this may have been present but not picked up on by Sheila's doctor.

All we have is a very blurry image of her long polished nails, and the pathologist's statement that they were undamaged, unless there are other pictures you know of. If photos of her clean feet taken during post-mortem have turned up, other clearer shots of her hands and nails could exist which only the police, pathologist and lawyers have seen.

I've no doubt that Sheila might have been able to load the magazine, possibly without damaging her nails... if, but only if she'd been shown how to and was very familiar with the procedure, but according to her husband she hated guns and never used them. Whether she could have done this under the extreme pressure and speed required during an assassination without damaging any of them is unlikely in my opinion.

It was Sandra not Caroline Elston who also said that Sheila was lacking in confidence, gullible and insecure so she always seeking reassurance.

All victims were described in the pathology reports as being "well nourished".  No doubt it mean something specific to a pathologist.

I didn't necessarily mean women that you know intimately, but women that you observe in your local community/workplace etc eg shops, banks, PO etc that have long nails and are constantly putting stress on their nails through their work duties.

I think children absorb a lot from their environment without actually needing detailed explanations.  They are often like sponges surprising parents and others with their new found knowledge/skill without any apparent direct explanations/instructions?  SC was a farmer's daughter and no doubt both consciously and subconsciously observed NB and others loading and firing weapons?  I think it is accepted SC went beating so if she was that opposed to shooting surely she would have declined?   DB is on record as saying SC had very little experience with guns.  I am not sure how much experience is required to load and fire a rifle at mainly stationary targets at close range?  I hope that doesn't sound facetious - its not meant to be - I genuinely have no idea?  Also we have no idea whether SC had school friends etc that may have lived on farms and therefore been exposed to some further experience?  Same for the farmhand SC had a relationship with as a teenager?

Yes I stand corrected it was Sandra Elston.  I think I was getting muddled with another friend/acquaintance who was nurse Caroline Heath?  By all accounts it sounds as though SC was lacking in confidence, gullible, insecure and sought reassurance from others (all features of a 'disorganised attachment') but this might not have been the case with those she knew intimately eg she threw pots and pans at Colin and struck him.   I am not sure that the lack of confidence etc would prevent her from loading and firing a weapon in an environment she was very familiar with against her family due to a distortion in her mind/thinking as a result of her mental illness? 

[John]

Back on topic, whichever way you look at it I have great difficulty believing that Sheila could ever have taken Nevill on without incurring injury of some sort.  That and the fact that only one bullet failed to find its target leads me to only one conclusion and that is that Sheila could not be the assailant.

[scipio_usmc]

A light bulb (enclosed by a glass shade at the time) hanging in WHF kitchen, not much higher than the top of the red AGA surround.  Compare the height of the door to that of person of average height. The shade easily reached and caught by the end of a rifle being waved about, once the table had been pushed towards the Welsh Dresser during a struggle... no need for pedantry about the exact distance of the shade from the floor to be measured in mm.

That is quite high and worse over the table which means the gun hit it not straight up and down with someone under it but rather with the gun held diagonally (which lowers the weapon)  I fail to see how the gun would be long enough without the moderator to break it if the weapon were being held in any normal fashion even by Jeremy let alone shorter Sheila.

The weapon would be held something like this with them struggling over it, I fail to see how it is long enough without the moderator attached to hit that lampshade:



We know the weapon was not that high for long because it was lower when it scratch the mantle.