The brutal beating of Nevill in the kitchen.

[scipio_usmc]

I think either Jeremy Bamber or Sheila Caffell (with arms extended upwards) could have reached the shade while holding the 50" long Anschutz, even without a 7" moderator fitted. My theory is that the shade shattered because the rifle was drawn backwards in an attempt to stop Nevill getting hold of it, or to get enough force behind it to strike a blow at him. Or even that Jeremy Bamber lost his balance and fell back towards the table while holding the rifle with arms raised.

My argument was that a struggle/fight of some sort occured in the kitchen which resulted in the lampshade getting broken, when you were arguing that nothing of the kind took place and that Nevill alone stumbled about pushing the table, upsetting all the crockery on it and knocking over numerous chairs and stools.

Examine the length of the unmoderated Anschutz this policeman is holding and imagine if he was flailing it about in WHF kitchen with arms raised above his head... do you think he could have hit the shade easily?



I do believe the moderator was fitted though, making it even more certain that the rifle broke the shade and which also caused the scratch marks under the mantle-shelf, whereas you think that it was a deliberate fix and plant by the rest of the family in an attempt to implicate Jeremy Bamber for the murders.

Why would Jeremy be flailing it over his head?  His father was tlaler than him, to prevent it from being taken away he needs to keep it as close to his chest as he can and in fact you strike with it to try to gain sole control.  Part of the technique of disarming someone who has a rifle is to first move the barrel away from you and then to grab it with both hands and move it towards the person to try to hit them with it.

Holding it above the head is what you do if some kid tries to grab it from you and you are playing keep away but then they can nail you in the balls or stomach because your hands are above your head.

They would be fighting over it something like this and the moderator making it longer enables it to hit the light while being held at such an angle:



You seem to be picturing it like this which makes no sense:

[scipio_usmc]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this and I think this is an appropriate place to post about SC's fingernails. 

It is often stated that had SC been responsible this would have resulted in damage to her fingernails, which were found to be intact.  This was the official line by the prosecution as per CoA doc.  Others are on record supporting this eg David Boutflour in the ITV docu. 

Dr Vanezis did not want to commit to stating whether or not loading and firing the rifle would result in nail damage. He said it was the province of ballistics.  As far as I am aware no evidence exists to support of reject the prosecution's claim? 

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18124332.600-fingernails-have-the-strength-of-hooves.html

Prof Ennos is now at the university of Hull 

Vanezis knew nothing about the weapon so deferred to the firearms expert who stated loading the 10th round was exceedingly hard.  Beting someone and rapidly trying to load the weapon would chip the nails. Worse the stock brekaing would do damage to the hand that was holding the stock unless wearing gloves.

The killer's clothes would have been covered in medium volicy spatter from beating Nevill the same way the weapon was.  In addition the killer's clothing would have GSR on it, Sheila's had none which is one of many reasons the experts said she didn't kill herself.  She supposedly hugged the weapon to kill herself with the exact area that discharges GSR being near her gown and yet not a single particle...

WHile you and Alia was ot pretend female nails that are long can't breka or chip there is a tremendous volume of evidence that says otherwise.

[Myster]

Why would Jeremy be flailing it over his head?  His father was tlaler than him, to prevent it from being taken away he needs to keep it as close to his chest as he can and in fact you strike with it to try to gain sole control.  Part of the technique of disarming someone who has a rifle is to first move the barrel away from you and then to grab it with both hands and move it towards the person to try to hit them with it.

Holding it above the head is what you do if some kid tries to grab it from you and you are playing keep away but then they can nail you in the balls or stomach because your hands are above your head.

They would be fighting over it something like this and the moderator making it longer enables it to hit the light while being held at such an angle.

By flailing I meant moving it about in an uncontrolled way (by definition) as if JB lost his balance, when wrestling for control of the rifle and moved/fell backwards shoving the table towards the Welsh Dresser in the process. In other words, just like the guy on the right of your photo if the guy on the left suddenly lost his grip. I didn't mean holding it up with one arm like Hussein is doing.



Not sure though that Nevill was capable of using his left arm at all, because it was so severely damaged upstairs, leaving only his right hand to grab and hold onto the rifle butt (which isn't the case in the above photo, where two are used). So if handicapped in this way, Nevill using just his bodyweight might only have been able push Jeremy backwards, making him lose balance. If it didn't happen like the above, maybe JB drew the rifle backwards above his head simply to get enough force behind it to reign blows on Nevill, catching the lamp-shade with the end while he did so.

[scipio_usmc]

By flailing I meant moving it about in an uncontrolled way (by definition) as if JB lost his balance, when wrestling for control of the rifle and moved/fell backwards shoving the table towards the Welsh Dresser in the process. In other words, just like the guy on the right of your photo if the guy on the left suddenly lost his grip. I didn't mean holding it up with one arm like Hussein is doing.



Not sure though that Nevill was capable of using his left arm at all, because it was so severely damaged upstairs, leaving only his right hand to grab and hold onto the rifle butt (which isn't the case in the above photo, where two are used). So if handicapped in this way, Nevill using just his bodyweight might only have been able push Jeremy backwards, making him lose balance. If it didn't happen like the above, maybe JB drew the rifle backwards above his head simply to get enough force behind it to reign blows on Nevill, catching the lamp-shade with the end while he did so.

Nevill was on the defensive.  He tried to either strip the rifle away or simply to move it so that it was not aimed at him.  His left arm was substantially limited so he couldn't do much to Jeremy without releasing the rifle.  Most of the struggle consisted of Nevill holding on to the rifle with his right hand as Jeremy tried to gain sole control.

Eventually that did happen and at that point Jeremy struck Nevill with it repeatedly.  All Nevill could do at that point was to try to block the blows with his right arm.  He blocked a substantial amount of blows but eventually got nailed in the face and head and upon being knocked out his chance of preventing Jeremy from relaoding was gone. That was his only real hope to survive.

I doubt at any time the weapon was above Jeremy's head as they were sturggling over it or that upon gaining sole control Jeremy had it above his head and hit the light. Much more likely is that they simply bumped into firniture as they fought over the rifle and the length thanks to the moderator resulted in it crashing into things and knocking things over including breaking the lampshade as the rifle was held diagnoally as they stood next to the table.

Nevill's left arm would not have had a good grip so he mainly would have had 1 arm to jerk the gun and Jeremy was trying to pull it the opposite direction. So the gun was moving around a lot. That explains why it scratched underneatht he mantle and yet knocked things on the floor and even hit the lampshade.

If Nevill's arm had not been broken chances are Jeremy would not have been able to finish off Nevill.  Nevill probably would have kicked Jeremy's ass in but for that injury.  Jeremy had no wounds to his face because Nevill could only grasp the rifle not also strike at Jeremy.  It wound up being a key shot though it was a mistake in the sense the goal was to shoot his head or chest not his arm.

   

[Tim Invictus]

I am not being pedantic nor (god forbid) ever supporting Bamber's case but it should be noted that it would not be necessary for the 'exceedingly hard to load 10th bullet' to have been loaded into the magazine to account for the 25 shots fired.

[scipio_usmc]

I am not being pedantic nor (god forbid) ever supporting Bamber's case but it should be noted that it would not be necessary for the 'exceedingly hard to load 10th bullet' to have been loaded into the magazine to account for the 25 shots fired.

The reason such is particularly noteworthy is because Sheila would have likely damaged her nails loading it.

If only 9 rounds had been loaded in the gun when she went upstairs that presents a big problem because 8 were used to shoot her kids and then 2 on herself and the gun was then empty.  If 9 rounds were loaded that means she would have to have reloaded another single round after the 1st shot to herself.

It is a bigger problem than you think...

[Holly Goodhead]

The reason such is particularly noteworthy is because Sheila would have likely damaged her nails loading it.

If only 9 rounds had been loaded in the gun when she went upstairs that presents a big problem because 8 were used to shoot her kids and then 2 on herself and the gun was then empty.  If 9 rounds were loaded that means she would have to have reloaded another single round after the 1st shot to herself.

It is a bigger problem than you think...

Hello Scipio.  I was beginning to feel you were neglecting me in favour of Angel of the North.  Southern girls are best - they understand personal hygiene. 

I am not sure that we can determine load numbers and sequence?  Surely many permutations exist?  It is said that poor little Daniel received 5 bullet wounds in quick succession due to the arc but how reliable is this?  We have no accurate decibel reading for the .22 being fired with and without silencer within a closed environment to hazard a guess whether the twin shot last would wake?  Small children can sleep through a lot of noise.  If SC, she may have loaded the rifle until she found it difficult and then reloaded.

No scientific evidence exists to show that loading the rifle, however difficult, would have caused SC to damage her longish fingernails:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18124332.600-fingernails-have-the-strength-of-hooves.html

I am only interested in evidence that is measurable and can be backed up by proven scientific methods.

     

[scipio_usmc]

Hello Scipio.  I was beginning to feel you were neglecting me in favour of Angel of the North.  Southern girls are best - they understand personal hygiene. 

I am not sure that we can determine load numbers and sequence?  Surely many permutations exist?  It is said that poor little Daniel received 5 bullet wounds in quick succession due to the arc but how reliable is this?  We have no accurate decibel reading for the .22 being fired with and without silencer within a closed environment to hazard a guess whether the twin shot last would wake?  Small children can sleep through a lot of noise.  If SC, she may have loaded the rifle until she found it difficult and then reloaded.

No scientific evidence exists to show that loading the rifle, however difficult, would have caused SC to damage her longish fingernails:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18124332.600-fingernails-have-the-strength-of-hooves.html

I am only interested in evidence that is measurable and can be backed up by proven scientific methods.

I don't know who you are referring to as the Angels.

While you and Alias suggest women's long nails are iunbrekaable in fact there is a substantial number of cases in which they chip or break through ordinary life things in addition to sports and during not ordinary.

Long nails even break from typing if not careful.  In fact just this week a corworker broke her nail pushing  abutton to close a minivan door.  Apparently now families are so lazy they can't close a damn door manually there is a button to push to close the sliding doors. She whined her ass off to eveyrone about her finger, it was quite annoying.

Women routinely break nails when their nails are long and they use objects to beat things even baseball bats.  The rifle stock broke.  The notion she bashed Nevill with the rifle and nothing happened to her nails is not credible but even more absurd is the notion nothing happened to her hand when the stock broke right where she would have been holding it.  Jeremy's glove was torn off by some notion during the struggle according to what he told Julie and most likely it was torn off when the stock broke. But so too is it absurd that she didn't get blood of Nevill on her gown/shirt/blouse during the struggle.

That is before even looking at the moderator evidence.

As for the shots the medical assessment that they were fired in rapid succession because of the tight grouping as well as the medical repercussions that was unchallenged by the defense and you have nothing to refute it.

For sure the shooting started in the master bedroom and had there been shots fired elsewhere before that then the parents would not have been shot in the master bedroom, certainly not June in bed.

She was shot at least 4 times while in bed, 1 while lying down with her head on the pillow. She was shot in the chest 2 times while either seated or standing and passed out on the floor.  During this same exchange Nevill was shot 4 times.  That is 10 shots.  The only question is did the gun have 10 or 11 bullets in it at this time and thus was June shot in between the eyes at this time or later on?  There is no way that June would have been able to survive long with the shot to her head (the shot near her ear that was delivered while her head was on her pillow).  That is why she didn't make it out of the bedroom while Nevill was able to. June had been immobilized before Nevill and the killer fled the room.  So when the killer returned to the bedroom after killing Nevill in the kitchen the killer found June in the same position as when the killer left- collapsed on the floor.  The only shot that could could have been delivered while she was lying on the floor is the shot between her eyes.  The trajectory of the rounds precludes any other shot being fired while she was in that position and if she could have walked further she would have left the room not collapsed by her bed.   

If one shot had been fired in each boy and then the killer ran to the master bedroom before June could even get up then that leaves only 8-9 rounds though at least 10 were definitely fired before Nevill left the room.   

Thus we know for a fact the shooting started in the master bedroom.  Indeed that is where it should start because the biggest threat are the parents, they are the most dangerous and would need to be killed first.     

So there is only 1 unknown variable in the first shooting incident.  Was 10 or 11 rounds fired into the parents?

The next shooting incident was in the kitchen.  The gun was epty when the killer and Nevill left the master bedroom and was still empty during thestruggle or there would not have been any struggle.  While you want to pretend Nevill wasn't beaten severely with the rifle clearly he was. After knocking him out the killer reloaded at least 4 rounds and shot him 4 times killing him.

The killer then went upstairs with the gun loaded with either 10 or 11 rounds.  If June was shot in between the eyes at this point the gun had 11 rounds- 1 expended on June, 8 on the boys and the last 2 on Sheila.

It already doesn't work that the boys were shot 1 time each before the parents but why would Sheila later shoot them addiitonal times anyway?   If she only shot them once and returned later she would have found them dead.  Why would she have shot them another 2/4 times respectively?           

If Sheila only loaded 9 rounds then that leaves either 8 for the boys and 1 for her mother or if 11 had been used at the outselt then it leaves 8 for the boys and 1 for her.  Why would she go downstairs and load an extra round 
so that she had 2 to use on herself? 

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't know who you are referring to as the Angels.

While you and Alias suggest women's long nails are iunbrekaable in fact there is a substantial number of cases in which they chip or break through ordinary life things in addition to sports and during not ordinary.

Long nails even break from typing if not careful.  In fact just this week a corworker broke her nail pushing  abutton to close a minivan door.  Apparently now families are so lazy they can't close a damn door manually there is a button to push to close the sliding doors. She whined her ass off to eveyrone about her finger, it was quite annoying.

Women routinely break nails when their nails are long and they use objects to beat things even baseball bats.  The rifle stock broke.  The notion she bashed Nevill with the rifle and nothing happened to her nails is not credible but even more absurd is the notion nothing happened to her hand when the stock broke right where she would have been holding it.  Jeremy's glove was torn off by some notion during the struggle according to what he told Julie and most likely it was torn off when the stock broke. But so too is it absurd that she didn't get blood of Nevill on her gown/shirt/blouse during the struggle.

That is before even looking at the moderator evidence.

As for the shots the medical assessment that they were fired in rapid succession because of the tight grouping as well as the medical repercussions that was unchallenged by the defense and you have nothing to refute it.

For sure the shooting started in the master bedroom and had there been shots fired elsewhere before that then the parents would not have been shot in the master bedroom, certainly not June in bed.

She was shot at least 4 times while in bed, 1 while lying down with her head on the pillow. She was shot in the chest 2 times while either seated or standing and passed out on the floor.  During this same exchange Nevill was shot 4 times.  That is 10 shots.  The only question is did the gun have 10 or 11 bullets in it at this time and thus was June shot in between the eyes at this time or later on?  There is no way that June would have been able to survive long with the shot to her head (the shot near her ear that was delivered while her head was on her pillow).  That is why she didn't make it out of the bedroom while Nevill was able to. June had been immobilized before Nevill and the killer fled the room.  So when the killer returned to the bedroom after killing Nevill in the kitchen the killer found June in the same position as when the killer left- collapsed on the floor.  The only shot that could could have been delivered while she was lying on the floor is the shot between her eyes.  The trajectory of the rounds precludes any other shot being fired while she was in that position and if she could have walked further she would have left the room not collapsed by her bed.   

If one shot had been fired in each boy and then the killer ran to the master bedroom before June could even get up then that leaves only 8-9 rounds though at least 10 were definitely fired before Nevill left the room.   

Thus we know for a fact the shooting started in the master bedroom.  Indeed that is where it should start because the biggest threat are the parents, they are the most dangerous and would need to be killed first.     

So there is only 1 unknown variable in the first shooting incident.  Was 10 or 11 rounds fired into the parents?

The next shooting incident was in the kitchen.  The gun was epty when the killer and Nevill left the master bedroom and was still empty during thestruggle or there would not have been any struggle.  While you want to pretend Nevill wasn't beaten severely with the rifle clearly he was. After knocking him out the killer reloaded at least 4 rounds and shot him 4 times killing him.

The killer then went upstairs with the gun loaded with either 10 or 11 rounds.  If June was shot in between the eyes at this point the gun had 11 rounds- 1 expended on June, 8 on the boys and the last 2 on Sheila.

It already doesn't work that the boys were shot 1 time each before the parents but why would Sheila later shoot them addiitonal times anyway?   If she only shot them once and returned later she would have found them dead.  Why would she have shot them another 2/4 times respectively?           

If Sheila only loaded 9 rounds then that leaves either 8 for the boys and 1 for her mother or if 11 had been used at the outselt then it leaves 8 for the boys and 1 for her.  Why would she go downstairs and load an extra round 
so that she had 2 to use on herself?

Angel of the North is a reference to Caroline's stated geographical location (Durham) which seems to have caused some considerable controversy.  The Angel of the North is a giant sculpture situated alongside the A1, a main road connecting London and Edinburgh, and some 10 miles north of Durham.  Hence my nickname for Caroline is 'Angel of the North'   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_of_the_North

You certainly seem to have made a mark on the ladies Scipio.  Angel of the North has converted.  So too Susan and April.  Might be your influence or just a coincidence.  Oh and puglove is pregnant with your truth baby.  That's what I call the Lynx effect 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pio5Uiupa8Q

I haven't seen any posts from Alias re SC's nails  so I don't know what her views are.  I certainly haven't said that women have unbreakable nails.  What I am saying is that it is by no means a certainty that SC's nails would break if she loaded and fired the rifle 25 times.  Even a woman leading a sedentary lifestyle would expose her nails to many potential hazards on a daily basis carrying out every day mundane tasks and I don't see loading and firing a rifle and potentially using it to rain blows on NB as anymore or less hazardous. There's much scientific evidence showing that fingernails are in fact strong and robust which is largely due to the biological material they are made of ie keratin.  These myths re SC's nails have been perpetuated over the decades as imo JB's defence at trial was very weak and did not sufficiently challenge the prosecution's case. 

You have no real idea how the stock broke.  Was it forensically examined to look for fibres from a glove you claim JB was wearing when he carried out the murders and came off when the stock broke?  How would the stock breaking cause a glove to come off?  The stock may have broken when/if it came into contact with NB or any number of objects. I don't see the fact that SC did not sustain any injuries to her nails and/or hand is indicative of anything.  Think of pro female tennis players hitting serves at 131 mph and their opponent returning them.  This does not cause hand and/or nail damage.  If the rifle was used to beat NB with it doesn't follow that the perp's hand was necessarily over the stock.  As the broken stock was not forensically examined we have no idea whether or not it might have yielded some clues. 

The pathologist describes the incident in the kitchen as a "spirited defence".  To my mind this could mean that NB simply used his right arm (left being "totally impaired") to shield himself from the rifle being used to rain down blows.  I do not believe there was any "violent struggle" due to the injuries NB sustained in the bedroom.  If NB was in some sort of fight with JB or SC and wrestling over the  gun then how come the soles of his feet were free of blood, glass from the broken lampshade and sugar that *spilled from the knocked over bowl.  *Not clear whether this was caused before or after the raid team entered.

I agree June is likely to have been shot first whilst she was in bed although it is by no means clear.  If we had decibel readings for the rifle fired with and without a silencer within an enclosed environment we might have a clearer idea about noise levels to determine the likelihood of victims waking from the sound of gunshot alone.  Had NB have been in the bedroom when June was shot then imo he would have been short first as he was the greatest threat to either JB or SC.  Arguably more of a threat to JB if the motivation was greed and getting away with it, rather than SC suffering with a mental illness.  NB was not shot in bed but whilst he was standing in the bedroom.  If JB was responsible surely he would have ensured that he shot NB whilst he was still in bed? 

JB claims he left the mag full and a bullet in the breech but we do not know whether NB emptied after JB left. I think it is impossible to say with any certainty who was shot first and whether the shooter returned later to fire more shots at the victims and if so when.

Whether a multi-disciplinary approach of PROFESSIONALS using up to date methods and technologies could throw new light on the situation I don't know but it is far from clear to me what went on.

[abs]

scip:

While you and Alias suggest women's long nails are iunbrekaable

I haven´t really said that. What I said (on blue) is that some people have nails that don´t break, me being one of them. My nails are in a sense "soft", I can bend them in two directions, but they don´t break. They don´t break when I´m, say, playing Volley Ball, doing house chores, using them as a screw driver - whatever I fancy using them for!  The structure is very strong because they are flexible. I can´t be the only one in the world with nails like that!
It is not a given that Sheila´s fingernails would have broken by loading a gun, that´s all I´m saying - not that "women´s long nails are unbreakable".

[Holly Goodhead]

scip: I haven´t really said that. What I said (on blue) is that some people have nails that don´t break, me being one of them. My nails are in a sense "soft", I can bend them in two directions, but they don´t break. They don´t break when I´m, say, playing Volley Ball, doing house chores, using them as a screw driver - whatever I fancy using them for!  The structure is very strong because they are flexible. I can´t be the only one in the world with nails like that!
It is not a given that Sheila´s fingernails would have broken by loading a gun, that´s all I´m saying - not that "women´s long nails are unbreakable".

I find I damage my nails (split rather than break) when I'm cleaning (remember my OCD) and take my gloves off and cant be bothered to put them back on and end up exposing my nails to nasty's like Viakal - great for lime scale but not great for nails.

This whole thing about SC's nails surely requires a bio mechanic to give his/her opinion.  Dr Vanezis said he was not competent to comment on SC's nails and that it was the province of ballistics.  Maybe, but also biomechanics I would think.  To my mind the biomechanical movement of loading and firing the weapon and possibly using as a club to beat poor NB is no different from many other biomechanical movements that a typical woman would routinely undertake on a daily basis which would not necessarily cause any sort of nail and/or hand damage.

I have no idea if the defence tried to counter this at trial?  Probably not since they appear to me to have been very much asleep at the wheel. 

[Holly Goodhead]

The role of an autopsy is mainly to ascertain cause of death and condition of the body. The cause of death was determined to have been 2 gunshot wounds delivered within seconds of one another. The condition of her body was no wounds, no damaged nails and no foreign blood.

Vanezis was no told about the struggle in the kitchen or that the gun could have had a moderator.  Part of assessing whether she coudl have killed herself.  Had tha thappened he would have heavily leaned towards murder as he did down the road when everything was revealed.  Early on all he relied on was whether she potentially could have fired the gun 2 times and have reached the trigger.  He said while the 2 shots gave him some concern he could not say it was impossible. He found no evidence to say it was definitely suicide and could not have been murder.

He said the nails and so forth were not his expertise others could evaluate those aspects.

Others did evaluate those aspects and they all crush you.

1) Sheila had dexterity problems even before being diagnosed with Schizophrenia.  Those dexterity problems only worsened on her medication.  She was not taking countering agent which would have mitigated some of the parkinson's like motions she engaged in.  Worse though, without the countering agent she was over sedated and unlikely to have been able to do much, the oversedation limited her activities a great deal. 

2) If she were in a rage out of control she would have been even more wild in her actions not more skilled.  Not only does that present a problem for firing 25 shots without missing (which even anezis said would mean she had to be very skilled wiht the weapon to accomplish such), loading the wepaon with her dexterity problem and in the rage combined would result in her crashing her nails against the magazine and damaging them.  Moreover, she would have had to touch the lead tips of the bullets which would discolor her fingers in addition to resulted in detectable elevated lead levels.  At trial an expert handled the bullets loading them before the jury and showed his hands having visible discoloration and discussing the elevated levels detected consistently in testing.

3) There is zero evidence Sheila ever fired the weapon and zero that Sheila had any experience with any other semi-automatic weapons.  Living on a far contianing shotguns doesn't even mean one will know how to fire shotguns.  But that would not help make one skilled in using a semi-auto which operates differently.  People assume you just load  amagazine and shoot but that is not how it works.  The initial round must be manually fed from the magazine into the chamber or the gun will not fire a bullet.  After that the operation of the weapon feeds the bullets itself so it is a one time thing.  Sheila would not have even know to chamber a round let alone how.  Forget having the ability to land 25 rounds she would not have gotten off a shot.  Vanezis was not told that she had never used such weapon ever and did not thus address such in his autopsy report.  This is what the firearms experts discussed.

4) During the struggle in the kitchen a barefoot Sheila would have cut her feet on the broken ceiling lamp glass and broken crockery.  She also would have had some abrasions and cuts or th elike on her hands in addition to brekaing hnails from battering Nevill.  Wildly bashing things with an object when one has long nails results in damage to them. Her hand would have been exactly where the wood stock broke and therefore some damage would have resulted unless she had on protective gloves.

5) There was zero evidence on her body or clothing of having shot or beaten anyone.  No high velocity spatter or medium velocity spatter from the victims though such would have been present on her clothing had she comitted the murders.  That was not Vanezis's province to test her clothing for spatter or GSR so did not figure into the autopsy. Nor the fact that her hands exhibited no evidence of having loaded the weapon.  So no evidence she loaded the weapon (no elevated lead levels on her hands), none she fired it (no GSR on her clothing or hands) and no evidence she was near the victims when they were shot/beaten (no spatter).   

6) The moderator was clearly used in the kitchen and still used when Sheila was shot because her blood was inside

Advances in blood analysis tell us she was shot while seated propped up against something and moved flat after she was dead.  After being moved flat a pool of blood formed on the floor.  A bible was placed in that pool of blood.  Someone opened and closed the bible while the blood was still wet.  After her death SHeila could not have put the moderator away, moved her body flat, or opened an dclosed the bible in her blood.  Someone else was there and killed eveyrone quite clearly.

Since there is so much evidence that established Sheila did nothing you want to refuse to discuss such and address only the very limited information Vanezis worked off of at autospy to assess whether Sheila could have done it.       

What you are trying to do is obvious and invalid bordering on dishonest so a wastea of time and just harms your credibility.


WHich fails in the least to dent my assertion that he still could have tried to use his left hand and has no bearing at all with anything I mentioned since it dusccusse dhim using his right hand which you have no ability at all to refute so keep pretending he was a 1 armed man to avoid having to admit your claims are all absurd abd baseless.

 
I already told you countless times. ANd you even spent time asking about the height of the gun and light to try to pretend there was some way she could have done it without engaging against Nevill. You know the basis you jsut can't dent it.

Your interpretation is little more than you living in denial that it happened. You have no absis for your opinion at all other than the desire to believe it didn't happen because the fact it did compeltely crushes you.

Your intepretation that she was out of control so smashed things and knocked them over and wildy bashed Nevill while he was passed out is absurd.  You have no evidence at all to suggest that happened you simply made it up.

How did they get in the kitchen in the first place?  The killer fired 11 shots in the bedroom and then the gun was empty.  At that point either Nevill ran away to the kitchen with the killer chasing him or the killer ran down to get more bullets and reload and Nevill chased the killer to try to prevent relaoding.

It woudl have taken some time for the wounds suffered int he bedroom to knock Nevill out.  Otherwise he would not have even made it to the kitchen to begin wih.  His wounds were the broken arm, graze wounds, piece of his lip shot off and jaw shattered.  Untreated the wounds could have allowed him to bleed to death but clearly he didn't and pathologists all say he could have and did struggle with his killer.

The light was broken as the gun was struggled over by 2 tall men holding it up and down with the moderator attached fighting over control of it not a 5'7" girl holding the gun like an axe above her head. The scratched to the mantle were caused by the moderator zigzagging as contol of the gun was fought over not walking too close the the mantle and scratching it in that manner which would be a lateral mark simply and so wound the gun falling it would be a vertical mark not zig zagging all around.

Nevill didn't goin there ot just let his killer reload in peace or  go in there with the killer on his tale to simply let the killer kill him in peace he went to get a weapon.  If he wanted to use a phone he could have locked himself in the upstairs office where the 3rd phone was.

The killer didn't beat Nevill because he was passed out, the killer beat Nevill to be able to reload the gun in peace.  If Nevill passed out the killer would simply have reloaded and shot him to death. 

The killer broke Nevill's nose, gave him 2 black eyes and Nevill had defensive wounds on his arm indicating he tried to block the blows.  His watch was torn off in the process.  Your suggestion the killer beat his arms as he lay passed out are absurd. The killer bashed his head in with the rifle by bashing the stock into his head repeatedly.  The butt was forced against the metal of the rifle and a piece broke off exactly where the killer would have been holding it. The killer's hand would have been damaged by that and that is regardless of whether he was unconscious or not by that point. Jeremy mentioned to Sheila a glove being torn off and if anything it was during that break when it happened.  Only gloves would save someone from getting some kin dof scratch or cut from that.

Your suggestion that Sheila was simply going crazy breaking things in the kitchen and beating a knocked out Nevill is absurd.  Nothing was knocked over or broken in any other room. No one else was beaten.  If she did breka everything and run around on it she would have cut her feet anyway so you have no evidence at all to establish she was even in there as a bystander.  Your theory is not based on evidence but simply a pathetic attempt to get around the evidence by pretending it doesn't exist.

Nevill is the one Freddie claimed calmed Sheila down from the worst episode he ever saw. She was off her medicide and out of control and as soon as she saw Nevill she instantly became calm and spoke coherently.  The suggestion she would decide to beat him and only him, do so after he was unconscious and break everything in that room and only that room is absurd. You have no medical support at all he would walk in the kitchen and collapse unconscious let alone that she would beat his limp body.

Anyone with an ounce of integrity and honesty will admit there was a struggle in the kitchen where the killer beat Nevill severely until unconscious so the killer could reload the gun and shoot him to death.

Hi Scipio

Are you coming out to play? 

Re your point 5 above as follows:

"No high velocity spatter or medium velocity spatter from the victims though such would have been present on her clothing had she committed the murders".

If high and medium velocity spatter were noticeable on say JB's clothing/being then surely he would realise that EP, the pathologist and others would think it strange that SC appeared so clean? 

[Myster]

JB was crafty but not that clever Holly. If he wanted to get away from the scene aqap I guess he didn't even think to himself whether he should spray some blood on Sheila's nightdress - in just the same way that you make a shopping list, rush through the supermarket and come home thinking you'd bought everything, then realize you forgot something important but it's too late to go back.

I bet JB cursed himself for overlooking that, especially when he viewed Sheila's spotless nightdress photo and the pathologist's report with his defence team. He probably thought - "Hope they don't bring that up at trial"

It's the missed detail that catches murderers out - remember the case of "Acid Bath Haigh" who thought he had completely eliminated Olive Durand-Deacon with sulphuric acid, only for the pathologist Keith Simpson to discover undissolved gallstones and plastic dentures in the fatty sludge that was left.

[Holly Goodhead]

JB was crafty but not that clever Holly. If he wanted to get away from the scene aqap I guess he didn't even think to himself whether he should spray some blood on Sheila's nightdress - in just the same way that you make a shopping list, rush through the supermarket and come home thinking you'd bought everything, then realize you forgot something important but it's too late to go back.

I bet JB cursed himself for overlooking that, especially when he viewed Sheila's spotless nightdress photo and the pathologist's report with his defence team. He probably thought - "Hope they don't bring that up at trial"

It's the missed detail that catches murderers out - remember the case of "Acid Bath Haigh" who thought he had completely eliminated Olive Durand-Deacon with sulphuric acid, only for the pathologist Keith Simpson to discover undissolved gallstones and plastic dentures in the fatty sludge that was left.

JB grew up on a working farm and was present at shoots.  Surely he would have witnessed vermin, birds, livestock, game being shot/killed and the resulting spatter?

JM tells us that JB planned the murders over many months and yet he appears to have made so many ?basic? mistakes?

[John]

Jeremy badly misjudged the impact a .22 calibre bullet would have on the human body thus why there was an overkill with the twins.  This leads me to believe that they were executed after Nevill and June and possibly even after Sheila had sustained the first non lethal shot to her neck.

Many posters have asked the question over the years as to why was Sheila so compliant?  My suggestion is that Bamber used the twins as a bargaining tool and told Sheila he wouldn't touch them as long as she did what he asked...the poor girl had no option.

Jeremy was not expecting a physical encounter in the kitchen, he thought one or two rounds to the head would be enough to put Nevill and June down, he was mistaken.  It must have come as quite a shock to him to see Nevill make it downstairs in a vain attempt to summon help. The fight over the kitchen table was not part of his murderous masterplan.  No doubt he beat Nevill with the empty rifle after wrestling with him over it and as Nevill lay slumped in his chair Bamber reloaded before firing further bullets into his head from above.

There is no way any scenario involving Sheila being in the kitchen fits with the known evidence.  This whole 'Sheila done it' fantasy is a fabrication by Tesko and the Jeremy Bamber forum.  There only ever were two suspects in this case, Jeremy and Sheila, the evidence on so many levels is compelling in that the latter was not culpable. Jeremy did it, pure and simple!