Was the slamming door connected to an escape via bedroom patio door?

[sadie]

There was nothing difficult about this plan. You make your move quickly once everyone has arrived at the table/alibi. Can't meet them outside now.

But they weren't all at the table, were they?

Jane wasn't, was she?



Am writing this from memory.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

[sadie]

But they weren't all at the table, were they?

Jane wasn't, was she?



Am writing this from memory.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

However, if the abductor did leave through the parents bedroom patio door and manage to get away, then the Smiths sighting takes on a whole new meaning !!!!


Timewise it links perfectly.


Kates curtain whooshing and door slamming, where at about 10 pm. 


The Smiths sighting was also about 10 pm ... and the distance fast walked, of about 440 metres 5A to the Smiths sighting, would take maybe two minutes.


 &%+((£  Hmm?

[pathfinder73]

But they weren't all at the table, were they?

Jane wasn't, was she?



Am writing this from memory.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

Yes at 9 they were then somebody quickly left the table which Matt thought was very strange.

[sadie]

Yes at 9 they were then somebody quickly left the table which Matt thought was very strange.

My dear Pfinder.  You are out by an hour


We are talking about 10 pm NOT 9pm.

[sadie]

Now another thought has come to my mind.


IF the abductor left thru the parents bedroom patio door, at the time the curtains whooshed and the door slammed in Kates face, that time was 10pm (ish)


Maybe SY got there before me ...  and realsed that this was the way the abductor left with Madeleine .... and so the timing fitted exactly with the Smith sighting, which was just about 400 metres away also at 10ish and just a 2 minute walk away. 
Perhaps this is why they apparently hold so much store on the Smiths sighting ?


Is this, along with the night creche records, what decided SY that Jane saw another man carrying his own child?
Hence no more interest in Janes sighting?


It all seems to be falling in place with this theory, but I still know that it could be wrong.


What do others think?

[pathfinder73]

My dear Pfinder.  You are out by an hour


We are talking about 10 pm NOT 9pm.

That's the time Madeleine left 5A not 10pm when she was seen heading towards the beach/rocks.

[Carana]

The bedroom window escape route doesn't seem very likely to me if the blind was down (which it appears to be in the photo).

[sadie]

I agree the shutters do appear to be closed.

The only thing is, Carana

Those photos were taken , I believe, in the middle of the night

The Mccanns left for the tapas restaurant in the full daylight. 


Were the shutters closed when they left ?   ... it was daylight after all.




Also, might the PJ have closed the shutters to keep out prying eyes as they went about their investigation ?

We just dont know, do we ?

Because of this I think the exit via the parents bedroom patio door must be considered an option.



Although to me, the exit and entrance via the front door is still the most likely route.

[Brietta]

The bedroom window escape route doesn't seem very likely to me if the blind was down (which it appears to be in the photo).

I have just read Sadie's post and agree with what she says; although we can only speculate because there seems to be no information at all about that bedroom outer door.

From the reference below to “one patio door” and “(the other) patio door” I think the technician certainly checked it for fingerprints at the time. 

I was sure I had read that a palm print was recovered from there and was later found to be that of a police officer; I may be mistaken in that unless someone can say differently (maybe pegasus can help to prove me right or wrong) as I can only find reference to one fingerprint identified as being from a GNR officer.

If the outer shutter was down the intruder would have been unable to exit without Dr McCann hearing him/her (see Sadie's post for why that may not have been the case http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5123.msg182192#msg182192); therefore opening the sliding door would not have occurred to account for the change in pressure which may have caused the other bedroom door to slam. 

I don’t think it shoots down in flames the theory that a stranger may have hidden in the back bedroom as there would be time still to exit via the other door while Dr McCann was checking the other bedroom for Madeleine and the window.
As Sadie has noted in another post the timing of this ties in almost perfectly with the Smith sighting.

I have always thought Tannerman was very significant and was of the opinion that egress was via the wooden front door; when he was eliminated it was thought that Dr McCann had just missed the perpetrator by minutes, I'm swinging round to the notion he could still have been in the apartment.
No-one would have taken any notice of a father carrying a child along that lane at the back of the block. 

B - Pages 967-972 Processo vol 4.
At 11:00am on 4 May 2007 I, IT, assistant-specialist, began to examine the following location:
At apartment 5A, Ocean Club:
- Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.
- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate prints were recovered. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm#p4p967

[Carana]

04-PROCESSO 4 -967 to 972
WITH THANKS TO ALBYM
04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_967
04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_968

B - Pages 967-972 Processo vol 4.
At 11:00am on 4 May 2007 I, IT, assistant-specialist, began to examine the following location:
At apartment 5A, Ocean Club:

- Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.

- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate prints were recovered.

This seems to be a summary of Albym's understanding as opposed to what is on this page, which states that the prints were recovered from the living room sliding doors. There are two entries, which might explain why Albym thinks that it referred to two different doors, but they are both from the living-room.

[Carana]

I agree the shutters do appear to be closed.

The only thing is, Carana

Those photos were taken , I believe, in the middle of the night

The Mccanns left for the tapas restaurant in the full daylight. 


Were the shutters closed when they left ?   ... it was daylight after all.




Also, might the PJ have closed the shutters to keep out prying eyes as they went about their investigation ?

We just dont know, do we ?

Because of this I think the exit via the parents bedroom patio door must be considered an option.



Although to me, the exit and entrance via the front door is still the most likely route.

It's an option if the blinds were effectively up when they left and the police or even someone from the group later rolled them down. However, I haven't found anything to indicate that anyone had done so, nor have I found anything to suggest that the forensic lot had taken fingerprints of the bedroom glass doors.

It certainly wasn't dark when they left, but if they were noisy, they might have shut them before leaving to avoid the kids waking up. Or they may have left them permanently down (the blind in the kids' room was always down as they were only ever in there to sleep).


I don't see why anyone would have rolled them down to escape from prying eyes as there were curtains.

[Carana]

@ Brietta

I don't discount that whoever it was could have hidden in the parents' bedroom at some point (it doesn't appear to have been part of the forensic sweep). However, I find it unlikely that he could have done so upon hearing Kate coming to do her check. Even if the blind had been up, it would still have meant getting out with a child in the dark, closing the sliding door, not disturbing the curtain, getting down the steps without either bumping into Kate or her hearing anything unusual. If the blind was up and he'd used a flashlight, there would have been the additional risk of a flicker of light shining through the curtains.

Hiding in the bedroom either during Gerry's check or Matt's would seem more plausible... but then once they'd gone, exiting via the front door would seem to be easiest. 

[Brietta]

@ Brietta

I don't discount that whoever it was could have hidden in the parents' bedroom at some point (it doesn't appear to have been part of the forensic sweep). However, I find it unlikely that he could have done so upon hearing Kate coming to do her check. Even if the blind had been up, it would still have meant getting out with a child in the dark, closing the sliding door, not disturbing the curtain, getting down the steps without either bumping into Kate or her hearing anything unusual. If the blind was up and he'd used a flashlight, there would have been the additional risk of a flicker of light shining through the curtains.

Hiding in the bedroom either during Gerry's check or Matt's would seem more plausible... but then once they'd gone, exiting via the front door would seem to be easiest.

Easy enough to criticise with benefit of hindsight (and I do it a lot) for apparently not forensically sweeping absolutely everywhere; but it really was very remiss if the parents' bedroom was missed, and I am amazed at how 'invisible' the door has been without so much as a mention - such as 'looked at door, eliminated because ...'.

I've just been reading a study by a former FBI agent who is convinced that Madeleine made her own way out of the apartment and was abducted from the street.
There is no evidence to support anything at all I agree that the most feasible thing to have happened is the exit via the front door the timing of which would still tie in with the Smith sighting.

With reference to the FBI agent's study - he says there was CCTV coverage of the roadway including apartment 5 from a camera located in the supermarket - but it was not recording.

[Wonderfulspam]

Easy enough to criticise with benefit of hindsight (and I do it a lot) for apparently not forensically sweeping absolutely everywhere; but it really was very remiss if the parents' bedroom was missed, and I am amazed at how 'invisible' the door has been without so much as a mention - such as 'looked at door, eliminated because ...'.

I've just been reading a study by a former FBI agent who is convinced that Madeleine made her own way out of the apartment and was abducted from the street.
There is no evidence to support anything at all I agree that the most feasible thing to have happened is the exit via the front door the timing of which would still tie in with the Smith sighting.

With reference to the FBI agent's study - he says there was CCTV coverage of the roadway including apartment 5 from a camera located in the supermarket - but it was not recording.

I've just been reading a study by a former FBI agent who is convinced that Madeleine made her own way out of the apartment and was abducted from the street.

Madeleine wandered out of the apartment (amazingly, considering she was tucked up in bed & there was no way she could have got out on her own) & it just so happens that a child fancier was passing through & he picked her up & was laughing all the way back to his paedo lair.

I wonder who opened the window & shutters then?

[sadie]

It's an option if the blinds were effectively up when they left and the police or even someone from the group later rolled them down. However, I haven't found anything to indicate that anyone had done so, nor have I found anything to suggest that the forensic lot had taken fingerprints of the bedroom glass doors.

It certainly wasn't dark when they left, but if they were noisy, they might have shut them before leaving to avoid the kids waking up. Or they may have left them permanently down (the blind in the kids' room was always down as they were only ever in there to sleep).


I don't see why anyone would have rolled them down to escape from prying eyes as there were curtains.

We dont know if the shutters were up or down Carana.  Neither do we know if the patio doors were slightly open to cool the bedroom

But with such a lovely view to look out on, I do think it likely that the shutters were raised whilst they were in during the day. 

With the room being so elevated (like upstairs), nobody would be able to see very much inside from that alleyway. 


They seem to be like me, not too worried about ultra tidiness ... looking up, nobody would really see that much from outside