Author Topic: Three Door Moves  (Read 34446 times)

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Offline pegasus

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #90 on: October 17, 2014, 02:39:07 AM »
The toy didn't take her out of the apartment. The children probably had it when they were playing in the living room. Maybe they were fighting over it. The toy was placed on the bed before 8:30.
Thanks. So you have toy put on bed before 8.30pm. And how exactly does your theory make that fit with the 1h25m minimum interval indicated in the CSST study?
 

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #91 on: October 19, 2014, 03:23:04 PM »
Jumping over the wall toting 16kg or 17kg might be a bit of a tall order. Sit on it and swing your legs over more like. Did the cops find evidence of such do you know. Keeping the victim quiet at the same time. That seems to be a stumbling block unless of course he anaesthetised the victim before leaving the apartment. Closing everything behind him as he went with a third hand.
We seem to be running out of options here a bit I think. We perhaps need to do a precis of what is known, what is possible and what is improbable.


The kidnapper of Madeleine McCann drugged her and her twin brother and sister so they would all be quiet while she was snatched.

A duplicate key may also have been used to gain entrance to the holiday apartment where the children were sleeping, say investigators.
 
It means the monster is still a threat to children living or holidaying on Portugal’s Algarve and must be caught urgently as he is highly likely to reoffend.
 
Former police detectives David Edgar and Arthur Cowley have spent months re-analysing every shred of evidence.
 
They are convinced the ­abductor went to the family’s apartment on May 3 2007 fully prepared with sufficient drugs, probably ­chloroform, to knock out all three children.
 
The fact that Sean and Amelie, then just 18 months old, failed to wake when the alarm was raised, nor even as they were taken to another apartment in the cold night air, has persuaded the detectives that they, too, must have been drugged.
 
Had the twins been tested for drugs immediately, any ­medication used could have been established, making it easier to identify the kidnapper, but vital time was lost.
 
Chloroform can be made ­easily and other sedatives, such as the horse tranquilliser ketamine, are commonly in circulation in the criminal underworld.
 
Even now, however, experts say there may be forensic clues on clothing or bedding which could yield a breakthrough.
 
The Sunday Express can further reveal that the McCanns’ private detectives are working on a solid theory about exactly how Madeleine was abducted.
 
Just as television investigator Donal MacIntyre suggested in this paper three weeks ago, they believe there was a dry run prior to the kidnap that fateful night at apartment 5a of the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz.
 
While checking the layout of the apartment the night before, the kidnapper probably woke Sean, who in turn woke Madeleine. In the morning she had told Kate and Gerry she was frightened.
 
The fact that the children woke up is thought to have persuaded the kidnapper to use knock-out drugs when he returned the next night to take Madeleine, three.
 
On the question of the duplicate key, holidaymakers often left front door keys under the doormats during the day.
 
A theory emerging is that the kidnapper had a duplicate key to apartment 5a, which could have been used on the night to enter by the front door.
 
Mr Edgar and Mr Cowley do not believe Madeleine was taken through an open window as it would have been awkward, time consuming and there were no forensic clues left behind.
 
It is far more likely, they say, that he simply walked out of the front door with her in his arms. It had been thought that the front door was double locked, making it impossible to open from the inside, but this doubt falls away if there was a duplicate key.
 
The theory suggests the ­kidnapper had been targeting the apartment for a long time and had a detailed knowledge of the lock system.
 
With the front door unlocked, it is easy to simply pull a latch across to open it from the inside.
 
Another possibility is that the front door was not double-locked when Kate and Gerry left through the unlocked patio doors to join their seven friends at the resort’s tapas bar some 30 metres from their apartment.
 
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/133307/MADELEINE-EXCLUSIVE-All-three-children-drugged



Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins on the night Madeleine was taken

'On the night I just remember the twins lying in the cot and not moving - with lights going on and people moving around.

'There was a lot of noise and they just didn't move and I remember several times checking for chest movements. I did feel it was a bit strange that they were not moving let alone waking up.

'I did consider with Madeleine perhaps she had been given something too.'

The mother added the morning before Maddie vanished she had been crying and complained that she had not slept.

Mrs McCann said: 'I just think it is too much of a coincidence but I never thought for one moment that there was anything sinister.'

She added: 'When we discovered she had gone it seemed very likely that someone had tried the same thing the night before.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386093/Kate-McCann-Kidnapper-drugged-twins-night-Madeleine-taken.html

« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 09:06:46 PM by Wonderfulspam »
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #92 on: October 19, 2014, 03:37:40 PM »

Eileen McCann (Oct 2007, Express)

“I really believe they gave her a drug. There is no way they carried her out of there without her waking. If she was taken when she was sleeping by somebody she did not know, she would have screamed the place down.”
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Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #93 on: October 19, 2014, 03:46:08 PM »
'Mr Edgar and Mr Cowley do not believe Madeleine was taken through an open window as it would have been awkward, time consuming and there were no forensic clues left behind.'

'It is far more likely, they say, that he simply walked out of the front door with her in his arms. It had been thought that the front door was double locked, making it impossible to open from the inside, but this doubt falls away if there was a duplicate key.'
 
'The theory suggests the ­kidnapper had been targeting the apartment for a long time and had a detailed knowledge of the lock system.'
 
'With the front door unlocked, it is easy to simply pull a latch across to open it from the inside.'
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/133307/MADELEINE-EXCLUSIVE-All-three-children-drugged


I can't help but wonder how these experienced dectectives managed to work the open window & shutters into their theory.

Or did they perhaps just ignore it like Mark Williams Thomas does, or the way Prof Barclay had to.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 04:11:43 PM by Wonderfulspam »
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #94 on: October 19, 2014, 04:37:15 PM »
'Mr Edgar and Mr Cowley do not believe Madeleine was taken through an open window as it would have been awkward, time consuming and there were no forensic clues left behind.'

'It is far more likely, they say, that he simply walked out of the front door with her in his arms. It had been thought that the front door was double locked, making it impossible to open from the inside, but this doubt falls away if there was a duplicate key.'
 
'The theory suggests the ­kidnapper had been targeting the apartment for a long time and had a detailed knowledge of the lock system.'
 
'With the front door unlocked, it is easy to simply pull a latch across to open it from the inside.'
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/133307/MADELEINE-EXCLUSIVE-All-three-children-drugged


I can't help but wonder how these experienced dectectives managed to work the open window & shutters into their theory.

Or did they perhaps just ignore it like Mark Williams Thomas does, or the way Prof Barclay had to.


Maybe they thought we would take it as read the window was opened for ventilation purposes to reduce/eliminate the odour of chloroform?
It seems extraordinary lengths to go to; wouldn't it have been easier to snatch a child from the nearest market, bus station or railway station?
My old granny used to say there is more than one way to kill a cat; you don't have to suck its brains out through its backside* using a straw. Seems these guys didn't have grannies like mine.
* she didn't say backside; I cleaned it up for the mods.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 04:55:15 PM by Alice Purjorick »
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #95 on: October 19, 2014, 05:20:08 PM »

Maybe they thought we would take it as read the window was opened for ventilation purposes to reduce/eliminate the odour of chloroform?
It seems extraordinary lengths to go to; wouldn't it have been easier to snatch a child from the nearest market, bus station or railway station?
My old granny used to say there is more than one way to kill a cat; you don't have to suck its brains out through its backside* using a straw. Seems these guys didn't have grannies like mine.
* she didn't say backside; I cleaned it up for the mods.

Donal MacIntyre had a similar 'cat brains through backside' theory, he went for the abductor who entered through the (debunked) patio door, hid during Gerry's check, drugged Maddie with chloroform then passed her out the window to an accomplice abductor, before he himself climbed out.

Oh, & they had carried out a dress rehersal, some time before.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/128671/Madeleine-I-know-how-she-was-taken#_methods=onPlusOne%2C_ready%2C_close%2C_open%2C_resizeMe%2C_renderstart%2Concircled%2Cdrefresh%2Cerefresh%2Conendinteraction%2Conload&id=I0_1413733768646&parent=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.express.co.uk&pfname=&rpctoken=68467067
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #96 on: October 19, 2014, 06:04:39 PM »
Donal MacIntyre had a similar 'cat brains through backside' theory, he went for the abductor who entered through the (debunked) patio door, hid during Gerry's check, drugged Maddie with chloroform then passed her out the window to an accomplice abductor, before he himself climbed out.

Oh, & they had carried out a dress rehersal, some time before.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/128671/Madeleine-I-know-how-she-was-taken#_methods=onPlusOne%2C_ready%2C_close%2C_open%2C_resizeMe%2C_renderstart%2Concircled%2Cdrefresh%2Cerefresh%2Conendinteraction%2Conload&id=I0_1413733768646&parent=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.express.co.uk&pfname=&rpctoken=68467067

What explanation was given for the doors moving to and fro ? Did the dress rehearsal include hiding from Gerry and moving the doors I wonder ?
I know I am stupid cos davel and Alfie have told me so but even I find that idea hard to swallow.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #97 on: October 19, 2014, 06:16:13 PM »
What explanation was given for the doors moving to and fro ? Did the dress rehearsal include hiding from Gerry and moving the doors I wonder ?
I know I am stupid cos davel and Alfie have told me so but even I find that idea hard to swallow.

'Gerry spends up to 10 minutes in the five-room apartment and will only later reflect that he felt there was someone else there at the same time.'
...

'My view is that the abductor was probably in the children’s bedroom, possibly behind the door or crouching behind furniture.'

The abductor hid there, without making a peep for up to 10 mins.

Unbelievable!
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #98 on: October 19, 2014, 06:23:49 PM »
'Gerry spends up to 10 minutes in the five-room apartment and will only later reflect that he felt there was someone else there at the same time.'
...

'My view is that the abductor was probably in the children’s bedroom, possibly behind the door or crouching behind furniture.'

The abductor hid there, without making a peep for up to 10 mins.

Unbelievable!

Twice don't forget because the guy in the Express reckons there was dress rehearsal.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #99 on: October 19, 2014, 06:31:35 PM »
Twice don't forget because the guy in the Express reckons there was dress rehearsal.

'As Gerry strolls out of the patio doors, closing but not locking them, he leaves through the same small gate facing the road where the abductor has entered minutes before'

'Back inside the apartment the abductor must be breathing a sigh of relief as Gerry leaves, then realises his exit route is blocked and plan B has to be put into operation'
 
'For this, help is essential. The abductor inside the apartment passes Madeleine – probably put to sleep with chloroform – through the open window into the accomplice’s arms.'



Well, there was at least a plan A & B, apparently, maybe they practiced them both.
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Offline Eleanor

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #100 on: October 19, 2014, 06:38:28 PM »
'As Gerry strolls out of the patio doors, closing but not locking them, he leaves through the same small gate facing the road where the abductor has entered minutes before'

'Back inside the apartment the abductor must be breathing a sigh of relief as Gerry leaves, then realises his exit route is blocked and plan B has to be put into operation'
 
'For this, help is essential. The abductor inside the apartment passes Madeleine – probably put to sleep with chloroform – through the open window into the accomplice’s arms.'



Well, there was at least a plan A & B, apparently, maybe they practiced them both.

I think you've got it.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #101 on: October 19, 2014, 06:47:40 PM »
'scuse me ! let me leave first I do so hate playing gooseberry.
have a lovely time
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline faithlilly

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #102 on: October 19, 2014, 06:51:51 PM »

Maybe they thought we would take it as read the window was opened for ventilation purposes to reduce/eliminate the odour of chloroform?
It seems extraordinary lengths to go to; wouldn't it have been easier to snatch a child from the nearest market, bus station or railway station?
My old granny used to say there is more than one way to kill a cat; you don't have to suck its brains out through its backside* using a straw. Seems these guys didn't have grannies like mine.
* she didn't say backside; I cleaned it up for the mods.

 @)(++(*
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Eleanor

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #103 on: October 19, 2014, 06:56:56 PM »
'scuse me ! let me leave first I do so hate playing gooseberry.
have a lovely time

He will, I expect.  Not sure about me though.

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: Three Door Moves
« Reply #104 on: October 20, 2014, 12:06:03 PM »
What explanation was given for the doors moving to and fro ? Did the dress rehearsal include hiding from Gerry and moving the doors I wonder ?
I know I am stupid cos davel and Alfie have told me so but even I find that idea hard to swallow.

I don't believe in the dress rehearsal because they must have known Kate was measuring the door gaps- and thank goodness she did- or she would never have noticed Maddie gone at 10pmish.

Lets look at two very interesting sentences.

Gerry 'I felt there was someone  in the apartment'   (he was there for 10mins) why didn't he check?

Kate ' I checked the twins were breathing- I thought it strange they did not wake up'  (she is a trained anesthetist). why did she not panic at them not waking up?

Why do these sentences still leave me wondering after all this time?



9
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin