Eddie and Keela and what the alerts meant if anything.

[Vertigo Swirl]

I think it's just a matter of time until the alerts are used in evidence in England and Wales. When the right case comes along they will be imo.

Not until there is a wholly independent and rigorous  testing system put in place and a load more science based research into the subject, IMO.

[Robittybob1]

its  amatter of permeability isnt it.......i dont really have a clue....but I would have thought it would permeate brown paper....but it seems it didnt in the Lane case

Didn't you read in the white paper or somewhere else that Grime was trying to invent a machine that filtered cadaver odour, so the components that make up  the species specific component must be quite large  to do that.

Brown paper might just be such a filter component.  This is the second observation that suggested cadaver dogs are not really smelling gases as such but physical chunks of something.  Remember the time in the McCann's apartment he was explaining how the cadaver odour could be concentrated by air flow?  That virtually tells us it is solids rather than gases. Maybe they are accumulations of fatty materials that are species specific.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Do you have a cite for this?

My apologies. I was mistaken. The source wasn't Grime... but I suspect from an unsubstantiated claim I read (or saw) elsewhere.

I have edited that post (with strike through - so you can still see my incorrect timing). It now reads as follows:

It comes back to that bag in the wardrobe.  It is in the photo taken at night but doesn't appear to be there in the next day photo.  Who moved that bag and when?

The bag in the first photo is pictured almost exactly where Eddie alerts.

Also with regards to the time cadaver odour first starts to develop the times quoted on the previous page are averages. The decay process of vertebrates begins rapidly after death (i.e. "four minutes after death") [Vass, A.A. Understanding Human Decomposition] and leads to the release of postmortem compounds in the ecosystem . These cadaveric compounds, mainly volatile organic compounds (VOCs), are by- or end-products of the decay process. Using dogs it has been shown to be detectable as soon as 30 85 minutes after the time of death (Cadaver Scent Project)

For a possible time of death, IMO, we need to look at the period between the last independent sighting and 30-60 at least 85 minutes before the latest reported time that the alarm was raised (22:15). Another possibility would be to conclude that Eddie alerted to blood behind the sofa and not cadaver odour. In addition a body may have been concealed in the cupboard in 5A and removed some hours later. This last scenario (which seems unlikely due to the risk of detection) would rule out GM being the man Martin Smith saw carrying a child.

 Another scenario that would explain Eddie's and Keela's alerts only at locations directly associated with the McCann's would be that someone using the McCann's apartment or hire car or items of clothing has been in close proximity with a corpse and had introduced cross contamination. Is there any truth in the stories that KM tried to explain away the alerts by saying she had attended a number of post mortems and she had taken her daughter's favorite comfort toy with her!?

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Didn't you read in the white paper or somewhere else that Grime was trying to invent a machine that filtered cadaver odour, so the components that make up  the species specific component must be quite large  to do that.

Brown paper might just be such a filter component.  This is the second observation that suggested cadaver dogs are not really smelling gases as such but physical chunks of something.  Remember the time in the McCann's apartment he was explaining how the cadaver odour could be concentrated by air flow?  That virtually tells us it is solids rather than gases. Maybe they are accumulations of fatty materials that are species specific.

This will help you understand what is occurring:

Enhanced Characterization of the Smell of Death by Comprehensive Two-Dimensional Gas Chromatography-Time-of-Flight Mass Spectrometry (GCxGC-TOFMS). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377612/

Or this one but you have to pay to read the full article... Decomposing Human Blood: Canine Detection Odor Signature and Volatile Organic Compounds, Journal of Forensic Sciences https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1556-4029.2008.00680.x

" This study, conducted at the University of Tennessee’s Anthropological Research Facility (ARF), lists and ranks the primary chemical constituents which define the odor of decomposition of human remains as detected at the soil surface of shallow burial sites. Triple sorbent traps were used to collect air samples in the field and revealed eight major classes of chemicals which now contain 478 specific volatile compounds associated with burial decomposition. Samples were analyzed using gas chromatography‐mass spectrometry (GC‐MS) and were collected below and above the body, and at the soil surface of 1.5–3.5 ft. (0.46–1.07 m) deep burial sites of four individuals over a 4‐year time span. New data were incorporated into the previously established Decompositional Odor Analysis (DOA) Database providing identification, chemical trends, and semi‐quantitation of chemicals for evaluation. This research identifies the “odor signatures” unique to the decomposition of buried human remains with projected ramifications on human remains detection canine training procedures and in the development of field portable analytical instruments which can be used to locate human remains in shallow burial sites."

Same with this one: Odor Analysis of Decomposing Buried Human Remains  https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1556-4029.13901

"The admissibility of human “odor mortis” discrimination in courts depends on the lack of comprehension of volatile organic compounds (VOCs) during the human decay process and of the lack in standardized procedures in training cadaver dogs. Blood was collected from four young people who died from traffic accidents and analyzed using HS‐SPME/GC‐MS at different decompositional stages. Two dogs, professionally trained, were tested to exactly locate blood samples, for each time point of the experiment. We found a long list of VOCs which varied from fresh to decomposed blood samples, showing differences in specific compounds. Dog performance showed a positive predictive value between 98.96% and 100% for DOG A, and between 99.47% and 100% for DOG B. Our findings demonstrated that decomposing human blood is a good source of VOCs and a good target for canine training."

Good to see that forensic science takes the use of CSI and EVRD dogs seriously - even if the internet forums are littered with sceptics!!

[Mr Gray]

My apologies. I was mistaken. The source wasn't Grime... but I suspect from an unsubstantiated claim I read (or saw) elsewhere.

I have edited that post (with strike through - so you can still see my incorrect timing). It now reads as follows:

The bag in the first photo is pictured almost exactly where Eddie alerts.

Also with regards to the time cadaver odour first starts to develop the times quoted on the previous page are averages. The decay process of vertebrates begins rapidly after death (i.e. "four minutes after death") [Vass, A.A. Understanding Human Decomposition] and leads to the release of postmortem compounds in the ecosystem . These cadaveric compounds, mainly volatile organic compounds (VOCs), are by- or end-products of the decay process. Using dogs it has been shown to be detectable as soon as 30 85 minutes after the time of death (Cadaver Scent Project)

For a possible time of death, IMO, we need to look at the period between the last independent sighting and 30-60 at least 85 minutes before the latest reported time that the alarm was raised (22:15). Another possibility would be to conclude that Eddie alerted to blood behind the sofa and not cadaver odour. In addition a body may have been concealed in the cupboard in 5A and removed some hours later. This last scenario (which seems unlikely due to the risk of detection) would rule out GM being the man Martin Smith saw carrying a child.

 Another scenario that would explain Eddie's and Keela's alerts only at locations directly associated with the McCann's would be that someone using the McCann's apartment or hire car or items of clothing has been in close proximity with a corpse and had introduced cross contamination. Is there any truth in the stories that KM tried to explain away the alerts by saying she had attended a number of post mortems and she had taken her daughter's favorite comfort toy with her!?

No ...no truth in the claims re Kate

[Mr Gray]

This will help you understand what is occurring:

Enhanced Characterization of the Smell of Death by Comprehensive Two-Dimensional Gas Chromatography-Time-of-Flight Mass Spectrometry (GCxGC-TOFMS). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3377612/

Or this one but you have to pay to read the full article... Decomposing Human Blood: Canine Detection Odor Signature and Volatile Organic Compounds, Journal of Forensic Sciences https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1556-4029.2008.00680.x

" This study, conducted at the University of Tennessee’s Anthropological Research Facility (ARF), lists and ranks the primary chemical constituents which define the odor of decomposition of human remains as detected at the soil surface of shallow burial sites. Triple sorbent traps were used to collect air samples in the field and revealed eight major classes of chemicals which now contain 478 specific volatile compounds associated with burial decomposition. Samples were analyzed using gas chromatography‐mass spectrometry (GC‐MS) and were collected below and above the body, and at the soil surface of 1.5–3.5 ft. (0.46–1.07 m) deep burial sites of four individuals over a 4‐year time span. New data were incorporated into the previously established Decompositional Odor Analysis (DOA) Database providing identification, chemical trends, and semi‐quantitation of chemicals for evaluation. This research identifies the “odor signatures” unique to the decomposition of buried human remains with projected ramifications on human remains detection canine training procedures and in the development of field portable analytical instruments which can be used to locate human remains in shallow burial sites."

Same with this one: Odor Analysis of Decomposing Buried Human Remains  https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1556-4029.13901

"The admissibility of human “odor mortis” discrimination in courts depends on the lack of comprehension of volatile organic compounds (VOCs) during the human decay process and of the lack in standardized procedures in training cadaver dogs. Blood was collected from four young people who died from traffic accidents and analyzed using HS‐SPME/GC‐MS at different decompositional stages. Two dogs, professionally trained, were tested to exactly locate blood samples, for each time point of the experiment. We found a long list of VOCs which varied from fresh to decomposed blood samples, showing differences in specific compounds. Dog performance showed a positive predictive value between 98.96% and 100% for DOG A, and between 99.47% and 100% for DOG B. Our findings demonstrated that decomposing human blood is a good source of VOCs and a good target for canine training."

Good to see that forensic science takes the use of CSI and EVRD dogs seriously - even if the internet forums are littered with sceptics!!

Unfortunately you have missed the point ss have others and still do after 12 years.

There is no doubt that cadaver dogs can detect cadaver odour and are a very useful forensic tool... No doubt at all..

The problem is... Is every alert in the field as reliable as the alerts in their controlled tests.... That question has never been addressed by those who have designed the tests and has therefore never been answered

[G-Unit]

Unfortunately you have missed the point ss have others and still do after 12 years.

There is no doubt that cadaver dogs can detect cadaver odour and are a very useful forensic tool... No doubt at all..

The problem is... Is every alert in the field as reliable as the alerts in their controlled tests.... That question has never been addressed by those who have designed the tests and has therefore never been answered

The point is that you don't know what occured in the dog's lives.

I don't know about all dogs, but I believe Grime's dogs were trained every day. I expect that included various locations, and records were kept. Assessments would also have included different locations.

[Mr Gray]

The point is that you don't know what occured in the dog's lives.

I don't know about all dogs, but I believe Grime's dogs were trained every day. I expect that included various locations, and records were kept. Assessments would also have included different locations.

You don't know as you admit. The question I have posed had not been answered... It's quite clear from what we do know that the tests were very simple...target odour or not

[Mr Gray]

In the US there has been a similar situation with the acceptance if canine evidence in scent line ups... Leading to many wrongful convictions... This evidence was accepted by many courts before being deemed unreliable... The judges were fooled

[The General]

In the US there has been a similar situation with the acceptance if canine evidence in scent line ups... Leading to many wrongful convictions... This evidence was accepted by many courts before being deemed unreliable... The judges were fooled

Which is it? Singular or plural?
And can you provide a cite(s)?
I don't ask for cites, because I think it's all a bit lame, but I've looked and can't find what you're referring to.

Scratch that, I've found it. https://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/us/04scent.html But this looks like a rogue deputy. 10 years ago.

[Vertigo Swirl]

My apologies. I was mistaken. The source wasn't Grime... but I suspect from an unsubstantiated claim I read (or saw) elsewhere.

I have edited that post (with strike through - so you can still see my incorrect timing). It now reads as follows:

The bag in the first photo is pictured almost exactly where Eddie alerts.

Also with regards to the time cadaver odour first starts to develop the times quoted on the previous page are averages. The decay process of vertebrates begins rapidly after death (i.e. "four minutes after death") [Vass, A.A. Understanding Human Decomposition] and leads to the release of postmortem compounds in the ecosystem . These cadaveric compounds, mainly volatile organic compounds (VOCs), are by- or end-products of the decay process. Using dogs it has been shown to be detectable as soon as 30 85 minutes after the time of death (Cadaver Scent Project)

For a possible time of death, IMO, we need to look at the period between the last independent sighting and 30-60 at least 85 minutes before the latest reported time that the alarm was raised (22:15). Another possibility would be to conclude that Eddie alerted to blood behind the sofa and not cadaver odour. In addition a body may have been concealed in the cupboard in 5A and removed some hours later. This last scenario (which seems unlikely due to the risk of detection) would rule out GM being the man Martin Smith saw carrying a child.

 Another scenario that would explain Eddie's and Keela's alerts only at locations directly associated with the McCann's would be that someone using the McCann's apartment or hire car or items of clothing has been in close proximity with a corpse and had introduced cross contamination. Is there any truth in the stories that KM tried to explain away the alerts by saying she had attended a number of post mortems and she had taken her daughter's favorite comfort toy with her!?

Thanks for the admission.  Now perhaps you’d like to try and figure out how the cadaver odour emanated from Madeleine’s corpse in the time frame, working with all the known facts.

[Mr Gray]

Which is it? Singular or plural?
And can you provide a cite(s)?
I don't ask for cites, because I think it's all a bit lame, but I've looked and can't find what you're referring to.

situations....and thats a very raesoanble request for a cite....its an interesting topic. Just to say... I dont tink grime is dishonest as two of these handlers were....but the similarity is canine evidence being admitted without proper testing...that leaves the situation open to abuse...ill find it now

[Vertigo Swirl]

The point is that you don't know what occured in the dog's lives.

I don't know about all dogs, but I believe Grime's dogs were trained every day. I expect that included various locations, and records were kept. Assessments would also have included different locations.

I thought you didn’t do beliefs?

[The General]

situations....and thats a very raesoanble request for a cite....its an interesting topic. Just to say... I dont tink grime is dishonest as two of these handlers were....but the similarity is canine evidence being admitted without proper testing...that leaves the situation open to abuse...ill find it now

No need, I found it and modified my post.

[Mr Gray]

For the benefit of others..

wrongfulconvictionsblog.org/2013/03/03/dog-scent-lineups-one-of-the-junkiest-of-the-junk-sciences/