Sheila and the two neck wounds

[tonyb]

This has started to intrigue me. The first,non fatal wound to SCs neck appears to have been administered with the rifle at a right angle (ish) to the torso as she is standing. This to me at least does not seem a sensible way of committing suicide,at the very least it will be awkward to reach the trigger whilst holding the barrel against the neck.it seems obvious that you would lay down and rest the rifle on your body? I suppose you could rest the butt on the floor and lean over and ram the dangerous end in your neck? I now there have been mock ups with SC using her toe but were they used to show the possibility of the suicide shot I believe. What about the first shot? How would you self administer that? Maybe you've covered it,but the blue side don't seem to like answering the question....

[puglove]

This has started to intrigue me. The first,non fatal wound to SCs neck appears to have been administered with the rifle at a right angle (ish) to the torso as she is standing. This to me at least does not seem a sensible way of committing suicide,at the very least it will be awkward to reach the trigger whilst holding the barrel against the neck.it seems obvious that you would lay down and rest the rifle on your body? I suppose you could rest the butt on the floor and lean over and ram the dangerous end in your neck? I now there have been mock ups with SC using her toe but were they used to show the possibility of the suicide shot I believe. What about the first shot? How would you self administer that? Maybe you've covered it,but the blue side don't seem to like answering the question....

Just wondering, if the ammunition was spilled out on the side in the kitchen, how did Sheila carry it, or another loaded magazine around the house? No pockets in her nightie.

The blood tracks from both wounds run in a similar direction. I think Sheila was lying down when she received both shots. It's possible that when she felt the gun pushed against her neck she moved slightly, hence the first shot being non-fatal. But IMO that shot did render her unconscious. Also IMO, if she had tried to shoot herself she would have pressed the barrel squarely under her chin, or possibly against the roof of her mouth, not to the side of her neck.

[tonyb]

Or she was shot whilst standing up? The coup de grace then whilst she was unconscious and therefore compliant?

[puglove]

Or she was shot whilst standing up? The coup de grace then whilst she was unconscious and therefore compliant?

But would the first blood from a shot standing up have fallen straight down the front of her nightie? At least some of it, before she collapsed? I would have thought so. The door to the boys' room was closed, it's possible that Sheila didn't know that they'd been harmed. Who knows what JB (or whoever) said to her? "Lie down, close your eyes while I leave, I'll spare you and the boys"? No more outlandish than most of the theories out there.

[puglove]

And if Sheila used the gun to batter Ralph about the head and face, I would expect sweat and smeared prints all over the stock and barrel. And backspatter from Ralph.

[puglove]

And if Sheila used the gun to batter Ralph about the head and face, I would expect sweat and smeared prints all over the stock and barrel. And backspatter from Ralph.

Sheila's stomach contents showed some partly digested food (did her medication slow down the digestion process?) but no blood. There is no way that she would not have swallowed blood if she had been conscious after the first shot.

[tonyb]

And if Sheila used the gun to batter Ralph about the head and face, I would expect sweat and smeared prints all over the stock and barrel. And backspatter from Ralph.

Sheila's stomach contents showed some partly digested food (did her medication slow down the digestion process?) but no blood. There is no way that she would not have swallowed blood if she had been conscious after the first shot.

Would SC necessarily bled from the 1st wound to any significance.Ive seen the pictures showing blood flow but could that have been due to "leakage" from the second wound filling the mouth and findig a way out?

[Angelo222]

And if Sheila used the gun to batter Ralph about the head and face, I would expect sweat and smeared prints all over the stock and barrel. And backspatter from Ralph.

Sheila's stomach contents showed some partly digested food (did her medication slow down the digestion process?) but no blood. There is no way that she would not have swallowed blood if she had been conscious after the first shot.

Would SC necessarily bled from the 1st wound to any significance.Ive seen the pictures showing blood flow but could that have been due to "leakage" from the second wound filling the mouth and findig a way out?

The first bullet did a lot of internal damage ending up shattering structure alongside her upper vertebra.  There would have been a lot of internal bleeding but probably not that much externally and then only via the bullet hole.  It is noticeable though that there are no signs that she ever touched the wound which can only lead to one conclusion and that is that the first shot rendered her unconscious.  It was the pathologists determination that the second and fatal shot was made very soon thereafter.  One thing is certain and that is that unconscious people don't fire guns.

[tonyb]

But what i fail to understand is why there is so much emphisis on the second shot. i may be wrong but wasnt the recreation that showed the possibility of SCs toe pushing on the trigger attempting to explain the second shot?
the trajectory drawing of the first bullets path seems to show the rifle would of been in a completley different shooting position to the second. what recreations,if any,of the 1st shot have been carried out. i hope you dont think i'm labouring a point but i am now struggling to see the significance of the second shot (apart from the obvious) in the Bamber is innocent debate.

[John]

But what i fail to understand is why there is so much emphisis on the second shot. i may be wrong but wasnt the recreation that showed the possibility of SCs toe pushing on the trigger attempting to explain the second shot?
the trajectory drawing of the first bullets path seems to show the rifle would of been in a completley different shooting position to the second. what recreations,if any,of the 1st shot have been carried out. i hope you dont think i'm labouring a point but i am now struggling to see the significance of the second shot (apart from the obvious) in the Bamber is innocent debate.

You raise some interesting points and it is good to explore them properly.  From the angle of the shots it is clear that the first shot was made while Sheila was upright, kneeling or standing.  The second and fatal shot was made as she lay on the floor with her head back.  Had she made such a shot the rifle would have fallen on the floor and not where it was photographed by the police.  Of course the conspiracists will say that the police moved the rifle but they had no reason to do so.  Their first impression on finding Sheila was that it was a suicide.

This brings me onto another point.  Had the police raid team actually encountered an alive Sheila they would have known that it was a suicide on later finding her body.  The fact that they changed their mind soon afterwards is all the evidence we need which proves that they never did converse with an alive Sheila.  The truth has a way of coming to the surface every time!

[Tim Invictus]

Excellent points folks. I cannot make any case for those TWO wounds being self inflicted and every possible fact about them screams Sheila was murdered. From the angle of attack of the first wound to the blood trails; there just isn't a scenario that allows for Sheila to have done it!

Even more ludicrous is the fairystory that Sheila made the first shot downstairs and then played possum before sneaking up stairs to finish herself off!

Even staunch Bamber supporters must have real difficulty equating Sheila's condition and the nature of the shotS with suicide! If they are honest! 

[John]

Your post got me to thinking about this again Tim. 

When tests were carried out recently on a piece of pig skin it just didn't replicate the situation whereby someone is shot with a rifle at very close range.  Is it not the case that when someone is shot with a rifle in such a way that there is back spatter?  From what I have seen of the originals photographs there is no blood back spatter on Sheila's neck which leads me to conclude that when she was shot the rifle was not touching her neck but some inches away.

If this was indeed the case then there has to be another reason why Sheila's DNA and blood was found in the silencer.  Could it be that whoever cleaned the silencer accidentally contaminated it with Sheila's blood?

[tonyb]

Your post got me to thinking about this again Tim. 

When tests were carried out recently on a piece of pig skin it just didn't replicate the situation whereby someone is shot with a rifle at very close range.  Is it not the case that when someone is shot with a rifle in such a way that there is back spatter?  From what I have seen of the originals photographs there is no blood back spatter on Sheila's neck which leads me to conclude that when she was shot the rifle was not touching her neck but some inches away.

If this was indeed the case then there has to be another reason why Sheila's DNA and blood was found in the silencer.  Could it be that whoever cleaned the silencer accidentally contaminated it with Sheila's blood?

So you go in,rifle at ready,silencer attached. Whatever order,all are shot. SC with the 1st shot. She is obviously shot upstairs. You've got to set the scene.you place the rifle in position.then the problem of the barrel is to long with the silencer attached.who knows,there may be many blood types on it.unscrew the silencer put it in your pocket.continue.
Problem.bloody silencer.take it home for "safe keeping". Mmmm.forgot to screw the knurled bit on the end mmm.
Problem.they surely going to notice the silencer is missing..... Better clean it up and put it back,they wil just think they will have missed it.
Now this is a possible chain of events,or maybe not. I will say however,that I've never been comfortable with the relatives finding the silencer.not so much the finding,more the taking position of.

[tonyb]

Your post got me to thinking about this again Tim. 

When tests were carried out recently on a piece of pig skin it just didn't replicate the situation whereby someone is shot with a rifle at very close range.  Is it not the case that when someone is shot with a rifle in such a way that there is back spatter?  From what I have seen of the originals photographs there is no blood back spatter on Sheila's neck which leads me to conclude that when she was shot the rifle was not touching her neck but some inches away.

If this was indeed the case then there has to be another reason why Sheila's DNA and blood was found in the silencer.  Could it be that whoever cleaned the silencer accidentally contaminated it with Sheila's blood?

So therefore also be said whoever mishandled the silencer contaminated it ,also?

[Andrea]

The blood was already in the silencer when it was found. I dont believe it was contaminated accidently or otherwise. IMO