New video on the case:

[Myster]

Well observed, D.S. Shona Jones... clear and to the point as always. 

You leaving us, sweetie?      Don't forget, that wonky table will need support very soon!

[John]

DS Jones "She had two shots to her neck.  I understand the first one wouldn't have been fatal but I would think possibly knock her out"

True... had Sheila still been conscious there would have been smeared blood all over her hands and neck.   The fact that there wasn't indicates she was unable to react in any way to the first shot.

Why some Essex Police officers who witnessed the scene first hand couldn't appreciate this for themselves is a bit of a mystery but then a round of golf was more important to DI Taff Jones than five murders.

[Holly Goodhead]

True... had Sheila still been conscious there would have been smeared blood all over her hands and neck.   The fact that there wasn't indicates she was unable to react in any way to the first shot.

The pathologist doesn't make ref to any of this.  In fact he has always made it clear he is unable to confirm murder or suicide.  He stated physiologically it would have been possible for SC to have walked around for a short while after the first shot although he didn't think this was the case due to lack of blood staining on her nightdress. The point I was endeavouring to make is that DS Jones said he thought the first shot would knock SC out but this is not what the pathologist said.  Why would anyone believe DS Jones over the pathologist?  The pathologist, Dr Vanezis, has an excellent track record:

http://www.petervanezis.com/index.html

 http://www.petervanezis.com/high_profile_cases.html

Why some Essex Police officers who witnessed the scene first hand couldn't appreciate this for themselves is a bit of a mystery but then a round of golf was more important to DI Taff Jones than five murders.

It is not the responsibility of police officers to determine cause of death. 

Dr Craig who attended the scene to formally certify the deaths made it quite clear he thought Sheila had taken her own life:

"38. At 8.10 a.m., Dr Craig attended the scene to formally certify the deaths. In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the previous night. The appearance of Sheila Caffell's body suggested to him that the wounds had been inflicted by her own hand. In answer to the judge the witness made it clear this was not an opinion the jury should rely upon as a true indication that the injuries had been self-inflicted".   

The pathologist, Dr Vanezis, made it quite clear he was unable to say one way or the other:

"46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life".

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

If you prefer the opinion of DS Jones over Dr Craig and Dr Vanezis then that's up to you John.  Having heard from DS Jones on the vid he doesn't fill me with confidence at all.

[Myster]

How come you always have to have the last word?      Stan Jones was a top bloke!   

[Holly Goodhead]

How come you always have to have the last word?      Stan Jones was a top bloke!   

How come you sound like my mother? 

[Holly Goodhead]

Holl, if there was ANY human blood in the baffles, it proves that Bamber did it.

You do know that, don't you?

Sorry if that blows your theory out of the water, my duck.

Best love and toodly pip.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I think you just want one of my long rambling posts puglove so here goes...just for you...xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Although the blood in the silencer was not statistically individualising it is almost certain it was SC's based on a match of not just the ABO blood grouping but also 2 enzymes and 1 protein.  All this talk of animal blood is WRONG, wrong, wrong 

However....what concerns me is that the blood samples taken from the victims by the pathologist were not sent direct to the lab at Huntingdon (FSS) but handed to EP.  See the handover at the top of the pathologist's WS:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=204.0;attach=704

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=204.0;attach=706

When the City of London Police investigated any police wrongdoing in 1991 DS Davidson confirmed he stored SC's blood sample in the SoC refrigerator at Chelmsford police station:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=178.0;attach=457

Those conducting the investigation asked various questions of DS Davidson (see below) to the extent they asked him if he put any of SC's blood in the silencer.  It all seems inadequate and had I been investigating I would have wanted answers to the following:

1. Who else had access to the SoC fridge?

2. What procedures were in place for accessing the SoC fridge?  Nowadays I'm sure a security card would be used providing a full audit trail of whose card was used to enter and exit the fridge or store room.

3. Evidence the samples handed to EP were all forwarded to FSS with the pathologist's signature on the seal checked against a sample signature held by FSS.

4. I don't understand why 3 blood samples were taken from NB and SC, 2 from June and 1 from each of DC and NC?  I would have thought the children needed drugs testing to check for sedatives?  (see links ending 704 and 706 above).

5. Evidence from FSS that the number of samples handed to EP by the pathologist matched those received by FSS.

6. A WS from the civilian driver who transported the samples (and other exhibits?) from EP to FSS.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=178.0;attach=451

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=178.0;attach=453

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=178.0;attach=455

[Holly Goodhead]

SC was probably more suited to simpler catwalk tuition rather than the more demanding secretarial side.

May I ask what makes you think that?

Speaking of assembly skills, when I fitted a new clutch on a Dyson it was by trial and error and took a long time because I'd never done it before. Likewise with the easier task of replacing a broken belt. Similarly, say if I'd never used a semi-auto rifle and, god forbid, was in the throes of shooting my whole family in the middle of the night, loading and fitting a magazine three times on the fly would be difficult without being shown or figuring out how to do it first, giving others time to overpower and stop me in the process. In one of the David Bain videos there's a demo given by an expert in court showing how a magazine is loaded and even he was slow and hesitant in explaining it to the jury.

Yes but how many times had you observed anyone fitting a new clutch to a Dyson?  SC had observed many others handling firearms since childhood.  JB left a full mag (10 bullets).  The initial injuries June and NB sustained in the bedroom would have incapacitated them to such a degree there was no possibility of either overpowering their assailant and no urgency in reloading.  I can't see loading the magazine and attaching it to the gun is anymore complicated than replacing a battery in a remote control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc&feature=youtu.be&t=1m21s
 
If we had opinion from a ballistics expert and bio mechanic providing expert testimony re SC's nails and whether someone relatively inexperienced with firearms was capable, or not, of being responsible for the shootings I would be happy to accept his/her opinions but we don't just the ramblings from the likes of us.     

I totally disagree... so when is Farm Girl paying me a visit?  Remind her to bring her bazookas (the soft squidgy type, I mean).

I might email Farm Girl and invite her to join the forum to comment on the WHF case with regard to firearms.  She sounds pretty cool.

http://bansheemoon.com/about.html

It would have been more exciting if she'd dropped her top and started feeding them, like the thumbnail pics at the end of the video. Wish I had a curvy 50 year old girlfriend who paraded about half-naked while Dysoning the carpet. Come to think about it, this fella's given me ideas...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3102225/Wash-dishes-bit-dusting-naked-Pensioner-places-job-advert-hire-20-hour-nude-cleaner-gets-11-replies-week.html?offset=0&max=100&jumpTo=comment-87439719#comment-87439719

I often do my housework naked other than my armband with my iPhone attached and headphones.  Mostly the bathrooms as I get carried away with all my anti-bacterial sprays, bleach etc that any clothes would get ruined and I often can't be bothered to dig out any anything old.  I need one of those belts that workmen wear for their tools for my sprays and cloths which could double as a loin cloth.

Relegated to the "Other" division... wonder what the respectable "Others" think about being lumped together with a murderer?

I think you're softening.  You've dropped the word 'mass'. 

[Myster]

May I ask what makes you think that?

... because she never became a secretary.

Yes but how many times had you observed anyone fitting a new clutch to a Dyson?  SC had observed many others handling firearms since childhood.  JB left a full mag (10 bullets).  The initial injuries June and NB sustained in the bedroom would have incapacitated them to such a degree there was no possibility of either overpowering their assailant and no urgency in reloading.  I can't see loading the magazine and attaching it to the gun is anymore complicated than replacing a battery in a remote control.

None... as I said, I installed it by trial and error. I'm no duck-egg!  Do you know how many and what sort of firearms she'd seen being handled?  The Anschutz was an unfamiliar recent acquisition, and Sheila was only at WHF intermittently during the period since it was bought.  Do you not believe Colin Caffell when he said she didn't like them and never used them?  Peter Vanezis who you often like to quote said Nevill put up quite a struggle, so I suppose you don't believe him either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc&feature=youtu.be&t=1m21s
 
If we had opinion from a ballistics expert and bio mechanic providing expert testimony re SC's nails and whether someone relatively inexperienced with firearms was capable, or not, of being responsible for the shootings I would be happy to accept his/her opinions but we don't just the ramblings from the likes of us.     

I might email Farm Girl and invite her to join the forum to comment on the WHF case with regard to firearms.  She sounds pretty cool.

Thought you'd already done that months ago, and there was no response. Ask Farm Girl if she's ever used an Anschutz 525 from scratch and if so, how quickly she figured out loading and inserting the magazine the first few times.

http://bansheemoon.com/about.html

I often do my housework naked other than my armband with my iPhone attached and headphones.  Mostly the bathrooms as I get carried away with all my anti-bacterial sprays, bleach etc that any clothes would get ruined and I often can't be bothered to dig out any anything old.  I need one of those belts that workmen wear for their tools for my sprays and cloths which could double as a loin cloth.

Will you do me a favour?  Nip over to the local Job Centre tomorrow morning and ask if there are any Window Cleaning vacancies... I might just be tempted.  I'll bring my spare workbelt and help you squeeze into it when you're in the bathroom... size 48" waist be OK?

I think you're softening.  You've dropped the word 'mass'.

You need to bump up the rez of your avatar for the line underneath to make sense.

[John]

The pathologist doesn't make ref to any of this.  In fact he has always made it clear he is unable to confirm murder or suicide.  He stated physiologically it would have been possible for SC to have walked around for a short while after the first shot although he didn't think this was the case due to lack of blood staining on her nightdress. The point I was endeavouring to make is that DS Jones said he thought the first shot would knock SC out but this is not what the pathologist said.  Why would anyone believe DS Jones over the pathologist?  The pathologist, Dr Vanezis, has an excellent track record:

http://www.petervanezis.com/index.html

 http://www.petervanezis.com/high_profile_cases.html

It is not the responsibility of police officers to determine cause of death. 

Dr Craig who attended the scene to formally certify the deaths made it quite clear he thought Sheila had taken her own life:

"38. At 8.10 a.m., Dr Craig attended the scene to formally certify the deaths. In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the previous night. The appearance of Sheila Caffell's body suggested to him that the wounds had been inflicted by her own hand. In answer to the judge the witness made it clear this was not an opinion the jury should rely upon as a true indication that the injuries had been self-inflicted".   

The pathologist, Dr Vanezis, made it quite clear he was unable to say one way or the other:

"46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life".

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

If you prefer the opinion of DS Jones over Dr Craig and Dr Vanezis then that's up to you John.  Having heard from DS Jones on the vid he doesn't fill me with confidence at all.

To be frank Holly I'm not in the least surprised since the pathologist was at a disadvantage to DS Jones.  The pathologist never saw Sheila in situ in the farmhouse whilst Stan Jones did. When the pathologist first saw Sheila in the morgue her face and neck were smeared in blood caused by contact with the body bag. He mentions this in his later statement and was angry that he was not called to the farmhouse BEFORE the bodies were moved.

We have all seen the before and after photos as this has been discussed previously.  The bottom line is that the photos don't lie in this particular case, Sheila never flinched after the first shot and that is certain.  She fell back and was shot again as she lay on her back...she never moved.

When someone is shot in the neck the first response, assuming the victim is conscious, is to touch the searing wound thus spreading blood everywhere.  This did not happen in Sheilas case as she was unconscious. 

Question is, was she unconscious before or after the first shot?

[John]

The blood from the silencer was proven to be human and not from animals, see forensic expert Mark Websters report.

www.forensic-science.co.uk/bamber.html

[Holly Goodhead]

Quote from Holly -
May I ask what makes you think that?

1.  Quote from: Myster - since deleted
 
... because she never became a secretary.

Quote from Holly

Yes but how many times had you observed anyone fitting a new clutch to a Dyson?  SC had observed many others handling firearms since childhood.  JB left a full mag (10 bullets).  The initial injuries June and NB sustained in the bedroom would have incapacitated them to such a degree there was no possibility of either overpowering their assailant and no urgency in reloading.  I can't see loading the magazine and attaching it to the gun is anymore complicated than replacing a battery in a remote control.

2.  Quote from Myster - since deleted

None... as I said, I installed it by trial and error. I'm no duck-egg!  Do you know how many and what sort of firearms she'd seen being handled?  The Anschutz was an unfamiliar recent acquisition, and Sheila was only at WHF intermittently during the period since it was bought.  Do you not believe Colin Caffell when he said she didn't like them and never used them?  Peter Vanezis who you often like to quote said Nevill put up quite a struggle, so I suppose you don't believe him either.

Quote from Holly
 
If we had opinion from a ballistics expert and bio mechanic providing expert testimony re SC's nails and whether someone relatively inexperienced with firearms was capable, or not, of being responsible for the shootings I would be happy to accept his/her opinions but we don't just the ramblings from the likes of us.     

I might email Farm Girl and invite her to join the forum to comment on the WHF case with regard to firearms.  She sounds pretty cool.

3.  Quote from Myster - since deleted
Thought you'd already done that months ago, and there was no response. Ask Farm Girl if she's ever used an Anschutz 525 from scratch and if so, how quickly she figured out loading and inserting the magazine the first few times.

Quote from Holly

I often do my housework naked other than my armband with my iPhone attached and headphones.  Mostly the bathrooms as I get carried away with all my anti-bacterial sprays, bleach etc that any clothes would get ruined and I often can't be bothered to dig out any anything old.  I need one of those belts that workmen wear for their tools for my sprays and cloths which could double as a loin cloth.

4.  Quote from Myster since deleted

Will you do me a favour?  Nip over to the local Job Centre tomorrow morning and ask if there are any Window Cleaning vacancies... I might just be tempted.  I'll bring my spare workbelt and help you squeeze into it when you're in the bathroom... size 48" waist be OK?

Quote from Holly

I think you're softening.  You've dropped the word 'mass'.

Holly's response to Myster as above:

1. Fair enough

2. AE tells in her WS that JB told her SC had been out rabbit shooting with NB and AP.  SC spent time at WHF when she left St Andrews hospital circa May '85.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2199

Colin Caffell said in the vid "She'd never used a gun.  She wasn't a gun type of person.  She never allowed the twins to have toy guns".  Fair enough but with respect CC wasn't around during SC's childhood on the farm to know SC's level of observation in witnessing others handle firearms.  Also they had been separated and divorced for several years and again CC was not party to what exactly SC did at WHF.

CC at 31.10 in "She never allowed the twins to have toy guns".  And yet in AE's WS she states "On the coffee table next to the settee I saw a child's toy gun, silver coloured.  It was about 5 inches long".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&feature=youtu.be&t=31m10s

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3098

You have recently posted about Jane Andrews who murdered her partner with a cricket back and knife.  I doubt she had any particular interest in cricket bats and/or knives but if someone is mentally ill and/or in some sort of rage/fit of anger they are usually capable of picking up whatever is around and use it to deadly effect.

In Doctor Vanezis' pathology report he refers to a "spirited defence".  He makes no reference of a "struggle".

3.  I had previously suggested to Scipio that we could invite Bunny Hunter onto the forum but he never got back to me.  I will contact Farm Girl. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5912.msg216817#msg216817

4. Hmmm...48" waist...should be ok if there's plenty of give and the buckle unfastens.  Otherwise I might have difficulty getting it over my voluptuous bosoms and thunder thighs!!!!!!!!  Oh and not forgetting my rear end that resembles the back end of double decker bus!!!!!!!!

[Holly Goodhead]

You need to bump up the rez of your avatar for the line underneath to make sense.

My Avatar is in response to your claim that I always have to have the last word.  It reads as per the attachment below.  The forum is for debating so not really relevant.  Its not a case of having the last word but trying to drill down and analyse the facts of the case.

[Holly Goodhead]

To be frank Holly I'm not in the least surprised since the pathologist was at a disadvantage to DS Jones.  The pathologist never saw Sheila in situ in the farmhouse whilst Stan Jones did. When the pathologist first saw Sheila in the morgue her face and neck were smeared in blood caused by contact with the body bag. He mentions this in his later statement and was angry that he was not called to the farmhouse BEFORE the bodies were moved.

We have all seen the before and after photos as this has been discussed previously.  The bottom line is that the photos don't lie in this particular case, Sheila never flinched after the first shot and that is certain.  She fell back and was shot again as she lay on her back...she never moved.

When someone is shot in the neck the first response, assuming the victim is conscious, is to touch the searing wound thus spreading blood everywhere.  This did not happen in Sheilas case as she was unconscious. 

Question is, was she unconscious before or after the first shot?

The bottom line for me John is that the pathologist has always maintained he is unable to determine murder or suicide.  A pathologist's conclusions are largely formed by the autopsy carried out on a victim away from the SoC.  Dr Craig certified the deaths at circa 8.10am, some 40 mins after the raid team entered, and right up to trial he was of the opinion SC had taken her own life.

I will be brutally honest John I was shocked when I heard DS Jones speak for the first time on the vid Adam kindly posted.  His personal bearing and the way he generally presents is not what I would expect of a British police officer.  I've never had any dealings with the police of any description other than getting pulled over for travelling at 35mph in a 30mph area.  I always had in my mind that the police were professional akin to Dixon of Dock Green.  Please contrast the police officers in Dixon of Dock Green with DS Jones on the vid and to a lesser degree PS Bews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHooSqfVD6w

In the above episode they talk about tracing calls too and this was long before 1985.

I'm very worried about this.  NB was right when he likened the police at Witham to Dad's Army.  I've stored the vid Adam posted on my lappy and I'm going to make an appointment to discuss with my local MP and email Theresa May.  Its not good enough.  Citizens should be able to trust the police to appear and act professionally at all times.

 

[Holly Goodhead]

The blood from the silencer was proven to be human and not from animals, see forensic expert Mark Websters report.

www.forensic-science.co.uk/bamber.html

Yes I agree but how can we eliminate the possibility of deliberate contamination?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6293.msg243911#msg243911

[John]

Yes I agree but how can we eliminate the possibility of deliberate contamination?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6293.msg243911#msg243911

We can't unfortunately.