New video on the case:

[John]

The bottom line for me John is that the pathologist has always maintained he is unable to determine murder or suicide.  A pathologist's conclusions are largely formed by the autopsy carried out on a victim away from the SoC.  Dr Craig certified the deaths at circa 8.10am, some 40 mins after the raid team entered, and right up to trial he was of the opinion SC had taken her own life.

I will be brutally honest John I was shocked when I heard DS Jones speak for the first time on the vid Adam kindly posted.  His personal bearing and the way he generally presents is not what I would expect of a British police officer.  I've never had any dealings with the police of any description other than getting pulled over for travelling at 35mph in a 30mph area.  I always had in my mind that the police were professional akin to Dixon of Dock Green.  Please contrast the police officers in Dixon of Dock Green with DS Jones on the vid and to a lesser degree PS Bews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHooSqfVD6w

In the above episode they talk about tracing calls too and this was long before 1985.

I'm very worried about this.  NB was right when he likened the police at Witham to Dad's Army.  I've stored the vid Adam posted on my lappy and I'm going to make an appointment to discuss with my local MP and email Theresa May.  Its not good enough.  Citizens should be able to trust the police to appear and act professionally at all times.

 

The autopsy could never answer this particular question. Vanezis didn't see the entire picture so he was not in a position to say anything for sure.  Anyone looking at Sheila lying there with not a scratch on her but with two neat bullet holes in her neck and with undisturbed blood trails trickling down her neck would be in no doubt...she never moved.

As for Dr Craig, he must have been taken in by the rifle lying on Sheilas body as Bamber hoped. A GP is not a criminologist and so could not be expected to give an opinion as one.  He merely reported what he saw and that was a woman lying dead with two bullet holes in her neck and her hand resting on the offending weapon.

[Myster]

Da-dada-dada-dada-dada-da-da-daaaa... da-daaa-daaa-daaa...

... Evenin' all!... George Dixon 'ere.

Aaaah... that brings back happy memories. Saturday nights sat in front of a b&w TV and blazing coal fire eatin' me beans on toast, thinkin' all coppers were straight as a die.

If Jerry had only watched that, he would have thought three times before murdering his family.

George reminds me of Stan Jones... straight-talking bobby, solves crimes easily, top bloke.

But the rest talk awfully posh for police officers in 1973... "Jolly good show, what, what, what!"

... one even looks like an East End spiv. 

... most of 'em good looking too.

... and all with full heads of hair!!! 

[Holly Goodhead]

The autopsy could never answer this particular question. Vanezis didn't see the entire picture so he was not in a position to say anything for sure.  Anyone looking at Sheila lying there with not a scratch on her but with two neat bullet holes in her neck and with undisturbed blood trails trickling down her neck would be in no doubt...she never moved.

I agree it doesn't appear SC moved but some sort of reflex action cannot be ruled out eg cadaveric spasm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaveric_spasm

The rifle was a semi-auto so the slightest touch of the trigger would release another bullet.  Dr Vanezis said he had experienced 4 or 5 suicides with two gunshot wounds.

As for Dr Craig, he must have been taken in by the rifle lying on Sheilas body as Bamber hoped. A GP is not a criminologist and so could not be expected to give an opinion as one.  He merely reported what he saw and that was a woman lying dead with two bullet holes in her neck and her hand resting on the offending weapon.

If SC's state at the soc was indicative of murder why did EP wait some 30 days to interview JB under caution and a further 20 plus days to arrest and charge him?  Plus allow him to leave the country and return under his own steam.  Dr Vanezis said all four officers present at the pm concluded they were dealing with 4 murders and a suicide.  If they had any doubts why not discuss them with Dr Vanezis during the post mortem?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=738

Initially DS Jones was the only dissenter.  He was not some high flying police officer.  At the time of the murders he was 45 yoa and only a DS.  I would like to know about the entry requirements and recruitment practices at the time DS Jones was recruited.

[Holly Goodhead]

Da-dada-dada-dada-dada-da-da-daaaa... da-daaa-daaa-daaa...

... Evenin' all!... George Dixon 'ere.

Aaaah... that brings back happy memories. Saturday nights sat in front of a b&w TV and blazing coal fire eatin' me beans on toast, thinkin' all coppers were straight as a die.

If Jerry had only watched that, he would have thought three times before murdering his family.

George reminds me of Stan Jones... straight-talking bobby, solves crimes easily, top bloke.

But the rest talk awfully posh for police officers in 1973... "Jolly good show, what, what, what!"

... one even looks like an East End spiv. 

... most of 'em good looking too.

... and all with full heads of hair!!! 

"Straight-talking" are not words I would use to describe DS Jones.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6293.msg241604#msg241604

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6293.msg241677#msg241677

[John]

If SC's state at the soc was indicative of murder why did EP wait some 30 days to interview JB under caution and a further 20 plus days to arrest and charge him?  Plus allow him to leave the country and return under his own steam.  Dr Vanezis said all four officers present at the pm concluded they were dealing with 4 murders and a suicide.  If they had any doubts why not discuss them with Dr Vanezis during the post mortem?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=738

Initially DS Jones was the only dissenter.  He was not some high flying police officer.  At the time of the murders he was 45 yoa and only a DS.  I would like to know about the entry requirements and recruitment practices at the time DS Jones was recruited.

They took so long because they were looking for evidence Holly.  Once Mugford came forward they had all they needed to take it to the CPS.

[Myster]

I agree it doesn't appear SC moved but some sort of reflex action cannot be ruled out eg cadaveric spasm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaveric_spasm

The rifle was a semi-auto so the slightest touch of the trigger would release another bullet.  Dr Vanezis said he had experienced 4 or 5 suicides with two gunshot wounds.

The two bullets were fired at different angles with an obvious delay between them - the first, perpendicular to her neck after which the rifle would have dropped when she released her grip; the second, parallel to her body, thereby ruling out cadaveric spasm and pulling of the trigger immediately after the first shot.

[John]

It is very improbable that cadaveric spasm caused the second shot as it was obviously targeted to finish the job.

The placing of the murder weapon longitudinally along the body with one hand resting on the trigger guard is also an improbable scenario. We don't know if this was how the first police responders found it but in any event the rifle would never have ended up perched there in such a position.

[Myster]

"Straight-talking" are not words I would use to describe DS Jones.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6293.msg241604#msg241604

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6293.msg241677#msg241677

The meaning of straight-talking is completely different from a slight speech impediment!

[Holly Goodhead]

The two bullets were fired at different angles with an obvious delay between them - the first, perpendicular to her neck after which the rifle would have dropped when she released her grip; the second, parallel to her body, thereby ruling out cadaveric spasm and pulling of the trigger immediately after the first shot.

Yes the two bullets were fired at different angles and the haemorrhaging indicates a delay of a few seconds between the two shots but I cant see that it wasn't possible for SC to have retained her grip on the trigger to fire a second shot albeit the rifle moved and the second shot fired at a different angle?  See drowning victims found dead clutching grass, weeds and roots:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaveric_spasm

The bottom line is from a pathological perspective Dr Vanezis was unable to confirm murder or suicide.

[John]

Yes the two bullets were fired at different angles and the haemorrhaging indicates a delay of a few seconds between the two shots but I cant see that it wasn't possible for SC to have retained her grip on the trigger to fire a second shot albeit the rifle moved and the second shot fired at a different angle?  See drowning victims found dead clutching grass, weeds and roots:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaveric_spasm

The bottom line is from a pathological perspective Dr Vanezis was unable to confirm murder or suicide.

Pathology couldn't determine that question as it was a matter for the detectives aided by the forensic scientist.

[Holly Goodhead]

The meaning of straight-talking is completely different from a slight speech impediment!

But he wasn't "straight-talking" he deliberately deceived and lied to JB during his police interviews:

Here he states the first wound was fatal and would have killed SC and that she didn't kill herself.  Not true the pathologist has always made it clear he was unable to confirm murder or suicide.  DS Jones, and the opinion of others, do not take precedence over the pathologist's.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1304

Here he states that none of JB's prints were found on the rifle.  Not true - one was found:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1328

[John]

But he wasn't "straight-talking" he deliberately deceived and lied to JB during his police interviews:

Here he states the first wound was fatal and would have killed SC and that she didn't kill herself.  Not true the pathologist has always made it clear he was unable to confirm murder or suicide.  DS Jones, and the opinion of others, do not take precedence over the pathologist's.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1304

Here he states that none of JB's prints were found on the rifle.  Not true - one was found:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1328

A pathologist can only give an opinion on what is presented to him.  Vanezis never saw Sheila in situ where she fell, had he done so his initial report would have been somewhat different.

[Holly Goodhead]

Pathology couldn't determine that question as it was a matter for the detectives aided by the forensic scientist.

Yes and according to the pathologist all officers present at the pm concluded 4 murders and a suicide.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=738

[Holly Goodhead]

A pathologist can only give an opinion on what is presented to him.  Vanezis never saw Sheila in situ where she fell, had he done so his initial report would have been somewhat different.

He had the benefit of four police officers with him at the pm to brief him and all officers prior to the examination concluded 4 murders/1 suicide.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=738

[Holly Goodhead]

It is very improbable that cadaveric spasm caused the second shot as it was obviously targeted to finish the job.

The placing of the murder weapon longitudinally along the body with one hand resting on the trigger guard is also an improbable scenario. We don't know if this was how the first police responders found it but in any event the rifle would never have ended up perched there in such a position.

I must admit the cadaveric spasm was something I introduced as an idea.  Dr Vanezis has never explained his thoughts on the two gunshot wounds in terms of physiological process.

Whether police officers removed the rifle in their haste to make it safe I wouldn't like to say but all officers present at the pm, who had also been present at SoC, and the pathologist concluded 4 murders and suicide.