The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee

[Myster]

Several possibilities on a warm Summer night... taking a breather, checking everything was safe outside their cottage, or if they had a dog, letting it out before retiring.

[puglove]

Err, that was simply a 'scenario' dear an idea - try reading things properly! How could I research who brought it back?  Seriously, quit with the obsession - it's embarrassing!  However, given that CAL is confused about the phones and when they were moved, I'm not 100% convinced that Foakes did 'see' Nevill - why would he be outside at 10:15?

The phones are a lot more important than many people realise. IMO they are actually key to proving Bamber's guilt.

[Myster]

Re. theories in the above Mail-on-Sunday article:

Carol Ann Lee has in my opinion got the sequence of a couple of events wrong.  For example, why would Jeremy Bamber after shooting his father four times in the bedroom, then go off to fire one bullet at each twin in their room, leaving Nevill alone but still able to walk around and free to escape to raise the alarm using the kitchen phone?  It doesn't make sense. More likely that his father was either forced or followed/chased downstairs immediately after being shot.

In Dr Vanezis' opinion, five bullets were fired in quick succession at Daniel's head, not just one then four later on, placing doubt on CAL's "single bullet first" theory...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=694

Also doubt that Sheila was left alone after being shot once, so that Bamber could finish off the twins, as written in CAL's account. Again, according to Vanezis, the second neck shot was fired within a few seconds of the first, giving very little time in between for Bamber to visit the twins' room and fire another six bullets, then go down to the kitchen, load a final one into the magazine before returning upstairs to finish his task...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732

June was shot in the neck first whilst lying in bed, as evidenced by the blood on her pillow in the CS photo, not afterwards when walking around the bedroom as stated in the article.

 

[Holly Goodhead]

Re. theories in the above Mail-on-Sunday article:

Carol Ann Lee has in my opinion got the sequence of a couple of events wrong.  For example, why would Jeremy Bamber after shooting his father four times in the bedroom, then go off to fire one bullet at each twin in their room, leaving Nevill alone but still able to walk around and free to escape to raise the alarm using the kitchen phone?  It doesn't make sense. More likely that his father was either forced or followed/chased downstairs immediately after being shot.

In Dr Vanezis' opinion, five bullets were fired in quick succession at Daniel's head, not just one then four later on, placing doubt on CAL's "single bullet first" theory...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=199.0;attach=694

Also doubt that Sheila was left alone after being shot once, so that Bamber could finish off the twins, as written in CAL's account. Again, according to Vanezis, the second neck shot was fired within a few seconds of the first, giving very little time in between for Bamber to visit the twins' room and fire another six bullets, then go down to the kitchen, load a final one into the magazine before returning upstairs to finish his task...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=732

June was shot in the neck first whilst lying in bed, as evidenced by the blood on her pillow in the CS photo, not afterwards when walking around the bedroom as stated in the article.

Myster as far as I can see the serialisation of CAL's book in the MoS bears no resemblance to the contents of her actual book.  The MoS give the impression the article is by CAL but I wouldn't mind betting she had no say whatsoever over editorial content or even allowing her book to be serialised in a tabloid.  The serialisation was probably part of the deal struck with the publishers. 

The article doesn't sound like CAL at all; rather a junior journo who knows next to nothing about the case.  It sounds like he/she has looked through the Mail's back articles on the case and put his/her own spin on it in line with the editor's take on the case.  The phones have a  ring of Bob Woffinden about them?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387438/I-wrong-Jeremy-Bamber-says-crime-writer.html

Most, if not all, journalists at the Mail will only have a fraction of knowledge about the case compared with most posters on this forum.

Btw I agree with your analysis above.

[Holly Goodhead]

Err, that was simply a 'scenario' dear an idea - try reading things properly! How could I research who brought it back?  Seriously, quit with the obsession - it's embarrassing!  However, given that CAL is confused about the phones and when they were moved, I'm not 100% convinced that Foakes did 'see' Nevill - why would he be outside at 10:15?

Yes I appreciate it was a 'scenario' an idea.  How can I read things properly when the only place I can read the thread you created entitled 'The Last Trailer' is on a forum you banned me from?  And has since been made 'members only' meaning guests can no longer view only!

How about allowing me access to your 'scenario' idea as previously agreed:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1033.msg189741#msg189741

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1033.msg189746#msg189746

If I remember correctly it was a lengthy post and involved a crow flying to the end of the field but worded more poetically  &%+((£  Oh go on Caro lets see 'The Last Trailer' 

As far as I can see JB said he left the last trailer for NB to bring in and this seems to be the case based on Len Foakes' WS.  Len Foakes lived along Pages Lane and worked at WHF so I see nothing odd with him observing NB at 10.15pm in August at the busiest time on the farm?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5632.0;attach=4572

[Myster]

If it was written by journos, then surely they must have access to the book and didn't come up with such wide of the mark theories off their own bat. Three years of research have supposedly gone into this book, so I can't see CAL letting inaccurate statements by a junior hack pass Myster muster. There's a Carol Ann Lee copyright declaration with the article too, so she must have had some control and vetting.
You'll have to wait until the 30th to compare and contrast, then we'll find out who's right.  &%+((£

[Holly Goodhead]

If it was written by journos, then surely they must have access to the book and didn't come up with such wide of the mark theories off their own bat. Three years of research have supposedly gone into this book, so I can't see CAL letting inaccurate statements by a junior hack pass Myster muster. There's a Carol Ann Lee copyright declaration with the article too, so she must have had some control and vetting.
You'll have to wait until the 30th to compare and contrast, then we'll find out who's right.  &%+((£

I've seen lots of discrepancies between the MoS articles and CAL's book excerpts.  The MoS are quoting CAL as believing JB guilty but in her book excerpts she appears balanced, objective and impartial allowing the reader to draw his/her own conclusion:

http://www.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/reader/9780283072222?fromssl=true

How newspaper serialisations work by Iain Dale:

http://www.iaindale.com/posts/2013/09/22/how-newspaper-book-serialisations-work

[Angelo222]

Tis all about money at the end of the day whether it is a book or a serialisation.  The thought that an innocent young man might have wiled away three decades in a jail sells to the great British public.

[John]

I've seen lots of discrepancies between the MoS articles and CAL's book excerpts.  The MoS are quoting CAL as believing JB guilty but in her book excerpts she appears balanced, objective and impartial allowing the reader to draw his/her own conclusion:

http://www.sainsburysebooks.co.uk/reader/9780283072222?fromssl=true

How newspaper serialisations work by Iain Dale:

http://www.iaindale.com/posts/2013/09/22/how-newspaper-book-serialisations-work

Holly, the Sainsbury exerpt appears to be all about family life and relationships up until 1978 and has no reference to the murders?   Is this merely a tease prior to the main course?

[Myster]

A Yorkshire Post interview with Carol Ann Lee...

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/features/bamber-murders-the-definitive-account-1-7368685

Contrary to what Carol Ann Lee says at the end of the above article, it would have been very easy for a fit, agile 24 year-old farmer to get into WHF Toilet/Shower Room or Lounge by one of the sliding-sash windows, as Jeremy Bamber admitted he had done so several times before in this police interview transcript - 10 to 12 Sept 1985...



http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1336

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1338

A wooden scaffolding plank or used fencing placed underneath the window as in this contemporary photo would have made the Toilet/Shower Room easily accessible...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg22008#msg22008

[John]

A Yorkshire Post interview with Carol Ann Lee...

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/features/bamber-murders-the-definitive-account-1-7368685

Contrary to what Carol Ann Lee says at the end of the above article, it would have been very easy for a fit, agile 24 year-old farmer to get into WHF Toilet/Shower Room or Lounge by one of the sliding-sash windows, as Jeremy Bamber admitted he had done so several times before in this police interview transcript - 10 to 12 Sept 1985...

I am really beginning to wonder if this author knows much about this case beyond the cosy chats and e-mails she has reported having with contributors to this book?  Her apparent ignorance of many matters including the means by which Jeremy Bamber used to gain access to an otherwise secure farmhouse is hard to square with her pre launch claim of a definitive account.

Carol Ann Lee might have consciously made the decision not to visit Bamber even though he was in a cell a mere three miles from her home but by the looks of it he has managed to influence her all the same.  According to Miss Lee, Jeremy Bamber offered to correct potential errors in her book before publication but this was declined by her with no explanation given.

[puglove]

I am really beginning to wonder if this author knows much about this case beyond the cosy chats and e-mails she has reported having with contributors to this book?  Her apparent ignorance of many matters including the means by which Jeremy Bamber used to gain access to an otherwise secure farmhouse is hard to square with her pre launch claim of a definitive account.

Carol Ann Lee might have consciously made the decision not to visit Bamber even though he was in a cell a mere three miles from her home but by the looks of it he has managed to influence her all the same.  According to Miss Lee, Jeremy Bamber offered to correct potential errors in her book before publication but this was declined by her with no explanation given.

I had high hopes for this book (especially after reading "Deviant") ......I doubt if she would have been granted permission to visit Bamber, but she could at least have done her homework. Yet again, this forum (well done, Myster) proves that we have all the facts of this case.   

[Holly Goodhead]

Holly, the Sainsbury exerpt appears to be all about family life and relationships up until 1978 and has no reference to the murders?   Is this merely a tease prior to the main course?

As I said a day or so ago, I'm pretty certain I read in another excerpt some very interesting clarification from an interview CAL had with Peter Vanezis.  But as I read it after a day at Wimbledon and drinks I'm unsure if I read it for real or imagined it while slightly intoxicated!  If it was for real Peter Vanezis confirms a) the burn marks were made on the night of the murders (I was wrong) and b) SC put her hand to neck after the first shot (you were wrong).  It seems she also interviewed Malcom Fletcher and Dr Ferguson.

In Myster's recent post and link to the Yorkshire Post interview with CAL she tells how unlike other authors she has started from the beginning and worked forward to the tragedy. So yes the Sainsbury's excerpt might well be the tease prior to the main course.

[Holly Goodhead]

A Yorkshire Post interview with Carol Ann Lee...

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/features/bamber-murders-the-definitive-account-1-7368685

Contrary to what Carol Ann Lee says at the end of the above article, it would have been very easy for a fit, agile 24 year-old farmer to get into WHF Toilet/Shower Room or Lounge by one of the sliding-sash windows, as Jeremy Bamber admitted he had done so several times before in this police interview transcript - 10 to 12 Sept 1985...



http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1336

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1338

A wooden scaffolding plank or used fencing placed underneath the window as in this contemporary photo would have made the Toilet/Shower Room easily accessible...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg22008#msg22008

I will reserve judgement until I've read the book rather than rely on second hand accounts via newspapers.

The article makes no sense in a number of places: CAL states she has her own views and has agreed with JB to remain neutral (obviously a fact the MoS seem to have overlooked). Yet she states JB claims he did not attempt to contact his birth parents pre tragedy; the relatives state the opposite that JB did attempt to contact them pre tragedy and they declined contact.  CAL has run with the relatives over JB. Why would she do this in the absence of any further info? 

I haven't read in any of the WS's that JB attempted to contact his birth parents pre tragedy.  AE makes several references to SC contacting her birth mother.

Saying she thought JB might struggle to fit in/out of a window doesn't mean anything really.  It doesn't rule it in or out.  She might have said that in passing to the journalist but I doubt if the book will contain such a personal view. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Been on a biz mtg all day.  Just looked at my messages and rcvd a text message from Waterstones CAL's book is ready for collection.  I'm off