The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't think so, had she put her hand to the wound it would have have blood on the palms and inner fingers and would have been completely smudged.  There would also have been a substantial amount of blood on the rifle and the trigger which there wasn't.

Who's the good looking guy in the avatar pic John? 

Just for you:

"Vanezis recorded in his initial notes: 'Blood-stained palm print on nightdress matches bloodstains appear to have been transferred from r.hand...Both hands not contaminated apart from bloodstains'.  But in court he declared that Sheila's hands were 'completely free of blood and if she'd pressed against the nightdress I would have still seen some traces of blood on her palms.  He explained that blood on her nightdress 'appearedto have been transferred from her wrist' although 'the palms of her hand were certainly not contaminated with blood, but there was spotting of blood associated and close to the wrist.'

Asked to address the discrepancy today, Vanezis muses: 'I'm not sure whether I said that after the blood had been washed from her hands'.  Regarding his courtroom statement about the stain on her nightdress, he reflects: 'The smear in the blood on her neck wounds is obviously from putting her hand up to it. Her fingers could then have made the marks on her nightdress because there are three streaks forming the stain - two together and one slightly apart. The marks could be from her wrist, but the thickness of them definitely resembles fingers and she certainly has some blood on the side of her hand.  There's also a line through the streaks where the material has folded, giving a slightly distorted pattern'. The blood trails evident on Sheila's lower right arm, together with substantial blood staining on the right side of the nightdress in the armpit area and below, reinforced the probability that she had raised her hand to her neck".

[John]

Thanks for that Holly, bottom line is he can't be sure about any of this, however, as I pointed out, there would have been much more smearing evident in the original crimescene photos had Sheila been mobile for any length of time after the first wound.

The only smearing I can see on her neck is where her head was forward causing a mirror image effect before she was laid back.  There are no marks whatsoever caused by her hand or fingers.

Below: Enlargement of original crime-scene photo.

[John]

This was what Vanezis was presented with, a slightly different proposition what?

Below: Sheila Caffell after having been moved to the mortuary.

[Holly Goodhead]

Thanks for that Holly, bottom line is he can't be sure about any of this, however, as I pointed out, there would have been much more smearing evident in the original crimescene photos had Sheila been mobile for any length of time after the first wound.

The only smearing I can see on her neck is where her head was forward causing a mirror image effect before she was laid back.  There are no marks whatsoever caused by her hand or fingers.

Below: Enlargement of original crime-scene photo.

I struggle with the soc photos so I wouldn't like to say.  I think Dr V is saying the marks on SC's nightdress are consistent with her fingers?

[John]

I struggle with the soc photos so I wouldn't like to say.  I think Dr V is saying the marks on SC's nightdress are consistent with her fingers?

The original crime-scene photos are unique. Clearly, the marks on her nightdress came from contact with her arm and wrist at some stage.

[John]

And then we have the altered/staged position of the arm and hand in the two photos below which probably caused the staining on the nightdress AFTER THE EVENT.

Only Jeremy and the first police officers who entered the master bedroom will ever know the actual positioning of Sheila's arms and where the rifle was.

[Holly Goodhead]

And then we have the altered/staged position of the arm and hand in the two photos below which probably caused the staining on the nightdress AFTER THE EVENT.

Only Jeremy and the first police officers who entered the master bedroom will ever know the actual positioning of Sheila's arms and where the rifle was.

CAL had a mtg with DI Cook and his wife Alvina.

"The two men examined her more closely, noticing a blood-stain on her nightdress under her wrist.  In order to see it clearly, Cook moved her hand and asked DC Bird to take shots of it.  Crime scene photographs thus show Sheila's hand in two positions and from a slightly different angle.  At trial, Cook explained that his aim had been 'to demonstrate the blood marks which were not readily visible under the wrist'.  Bird confirmed that he was present and had already taken a 'series of photographs' when Cook moved Sheila's hand to show the marks on the nightdress.  Acting Sergeant Woodstock also mentions Cook's action in his witness statement".

[Holly Goodhead]

CAL had a mtg with DI Cook and his wife Alvina.

"The two men examined her more closely, noticing a blood-stain on her nightdress under her wrist.  In order to see it clearly, Cook moved her hand and asked DC Bird to take shots of it.  Crime scene photographs thus show Sheila's hand in two positions and from a slightly different angle.  At trial, Cook explained that his aim had been 'to demonstrate the blood marks which were not readily visible under the wrist'.  Bird confirmed that he was present and had already taken a 'series of photographs' when Cook moved Sheila's hand to show the marks on the nightdress.  Acting Sergeant Woodstock also mentions Cook's action in his witness statement".

"Vanezis submits that in such a scenario, the length of the rifle must also be taken into account: 'If  Sheila had the gun in her hands, she would be able to wave it around and hit him with it - and Nevill would have to be careful how he grabbed it, because if it had already been fired, then it would have been hot.  Plus, I'm never surprised by the strength women have when they're filled with anger'.

[Holly Goodhead]

"Vanezis submits that in such a scenario, the length of the rifle must also be taken into account: 'If  Sheila had the gun in her hands, she would be able to wave it around and hit him with it - and Nevill would have to be careful how he grabbed it, because if it had already been fired, then it would have been hot.  Plus, I'm never surprised by the strength women have when they're filled with anger'.

Hmmm sounds like Dr V might have upset the fairer sex from time -to- time  &%+((£

[Admin]

"Vanezis submits that in such a scenario, the length of the rifle must also be taken into account: 'If  Sheila had the gun in her hands, she would be able to wave it around and hit him with it - and Nevill would have to be careful how he grabbed it, because if it had already been fired, then it would have been hot.  Plus, I'm never surprised by the strength women have when they're filled with anger'.

I believe an experiment was carried out in Arizona in recent times where an identical rifle was fired off muliple times and then the muzzle temperature recorded.  It seems the muzzle never reached a temperature which could cause damage if brought into contact with human skin.
On the blue forum someone suggested that the muzzle had been heated on the kitchen Aga.

[Holly Goodhead]

I believe an experiment was carried out in Arizona in recent times where an identical rifle was fired off muliple times and then the muzzle temperature recorded.  It seems the muzzle never reached a temperature which could cause damage if brought into contact with human skin.
On the blue forum someone suggested that the muzzle had been heated on the kitchen Aga.

The ITV clip showed that the rifle's muzzle didn't heat up sufficiently to cause the burns.  What about the silencer  . Silencers trap the hot gases in the expansion chamber and between the baffles making them far hotter than the rifle's muzzle where the hot gases dissipate in the atmosphere  &%+((£

OMG he did it!

[Myster]

I believe an experiment was carried out in Arizona in recent times where an identical rifle was fired off muliple times and then the muzzle temperature recorded.  It seems the muzzle never reached a temperature which could cause damage if brought into contact with human skin.
On the blue forum someone suggested that the muzzle had been heated on the kitchen Aga.

You're probably thinking of 'Bamber - The New Evidence' program with firearms expert, Philip Boyce.  The Anschutz 525 appeared to be a carbine version, ie. shorter than that used in the WHF case, so not representative anyway.

It's also been discussed here, with the rifle end being heated in the AGA combustion chamber via the fuel filler-hole in the left-hand hot-plate, or in the ash-pit through a door at the front. Heating it on a hot-plate or in one of the ovens on the right-hand side would have been too time-consuming to reach the required branding temperature, if at all, imo.

Having said that, the burns could have been caused by a red-hot ejected bullet shell ricocheting off the mantelpiece wall, then onto the nape of Nevill's neck, getting trapped under his pyjama top.

Or by something completely different.

[Myster]

The ITV clip showed that the rifle's muzzle didn't heat up sufficiently to cause the burns.  What about the silencer  . Silencers trap the hot gases in the expansion chamber and between the baffles making them far hotter than the rifle's muzzle where the hot gases dissipate in the atmosphere  &%+((£

OMG he did it!

The diameter of a Parker-Hale moderator is about three-quarters of an inch, a lot larger than any of the three burn marks.

[Myster]

The diameter of a Parker-Hale moderator is about three-quarters of an inch, a lot larger than any of the three burn marks.

In the Oscar Pistorius trial, these marks on Reeva Steenkamp's back were thought by some to be have been caused by a hot bullet ricocheting off the tiled wall behind her.

[Holly Goodhead]

In the Oscar Pistorius trial, these marks on Reeva Steenkamp's back were thought by some to be have been caused by a hot bullet ricocheting off the tiled wall behind her.

 I had written off the burn marks on the basis that Dr V made no ref to them when asked by the defence about other injuries NB sustained (other than gunshot wounds). 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=292.msg134570#msg134570

Why would he do this?  And he didn't even respond to my email seeking clarification  . Perhaps it's good he understands the strength of women when consumed with anger