HOLMES 2 and the search for Madeleine McCann.

[ShiningInLuz]

In what format does the data entry operative receive the data from the originator and what is the trail ? Or do you think the guy up the sharp end punches it into a phd as it happens?

Sorry, can't remember the thread.

In the one where Martin Smith's additional information is noted, our evidence comes from Braunstone (???), just outside Leicester.  It was keyed in by a 'HOLMES indexer'.

That suggests to me they have folk at the front end whose expertise is sticking info into HOLMES in a way that HOLMES can make the most of it.

Quite how one can do that without a good understanding of the case, the incident, or the incident scene is defeating me at the moment.

However, the info on HOLMES makes it clear that once rolled out fully in 2004, the HOLMES of every police force in the UK was connected to the HOLMES of every other.  Work carried out by LP should have been one of the easier bits to load up.  Unless OG wanted it indexed in quite a different manner.

[ShiningInLuz]

Just a refined very easily accessed filing system.  Initially labour consuming but ultimately worth its weight in gold.

I suspect several of us on here would like to get a day pass to play with the system.

[Carana]

As accounting packages. They are very powerful databases used by (usually) very big multinational companies. They can store and process data for many different company names (the companies I worked for had many subsidiaries all over the world). The last one I used was SAP and people world-wide were entering data. Depending on your access permission you could look at the entries being made by all those people. Searches can be carried out and bespoke reports scheduled. Obviously the information extracted was only as correct as the information entered. If a human entered the wrong Vat code, for example, that transaction would be under the wrong heading on a Vat report.

Are you suggesting that there is no validation process once someone has typed in an entry?

[jassi]

How might it be validated, other than double entry?

[ShiningInLuz]

Certainly easier than having to find scribbles of "furto" on bits of paper, I would have thought.

I have no doubt that numerous PT police officers did their very best under the circumstances. It's not their fault if they didn't have adequate resources at the time.

However, I find that very different to the constant stream of half-baked leaks and subsequent assertions by certain people.

Just my opinion, but I am entitled to my opinion.

If the PJ had HOLMES at the very start, they would have sunk without trace under the bureaucracy.

It takes one heck of a lot of manpower to get data into HOLMES.  It takes one heck of a lot of lead time to get the amount of data the PJ produced on 4 May 2007 into HOLMES.

What would the priority have been?  Surely the initial statements of the T9 on 4 May.  What would HOLMES churned out on those?  Surely, that there were issues with the timeline.  The PJ managed that without HOLMES.

Personally, I would like to have seen something a bit more automated than paper in a filing folder.  I would have preferred to see something much more agile than HOLMES.

IMO

[Alice Purjorick]

Sorry, can't remember the thread.

In the one where Martin Smith's additional information is noted, our evidence comes from Braunstone (???), just outside Leicester.  It was keyed in by a 'HOLMES indexer'.

That suggests to me they have folk at the front end whose expertise is sticking info into HOLMES in a way that HOLMES can make the most of it.

Quite how one can do that without a good understanding of the case, the incident, or the incident scene is defeating me at the moment.

However, the info on HOLMES makes it clear that once rolled out fully in 2004, the HOLMES of every police force in the UK was connected to the HOLMES of every other.  Work carried out by LP should have been one of the easier bits to load up.  Unless OG wanted it indexed in quite a different manner.

First let's be clear on my terminology:
sharp end= the guy on the street doing the real business.
blunt end= the chap or chappess feeding info into the macheeny.
How does the info get from the sharp end to the blunt end ?
Does the guy at the sharp end hand over his pocket book to the blunt end when he is off duty, the blunt end transcribes then hands back the pocket book next time the guy has to go on duty? (unlikely)
Does he write a report and hand it over either electronically or scribe then cleft stick runner? (probably)
Does he have a PHD connected to HOLMES so he can input data as it happens. (this would be best)
I ask this simply because the more links the more chance of error and there seems to be the idea that we should sneer at a police force that using something other HOLMES.
So fundamentally it is a system that is historical which has a fast retrieval rate and may have some contemporaneous whizzy bits in it.
So far so good. Nothing earth shattering there. Multi national corporations have been using similar for 20 years or so.

[Carana]

First let's be clear on my terminology:
sharp end= the guy on the street doing the real business.
blunt end= the chap or chappess feeding info into the macheeny.
How does the info get from the sharp end to the blunt end ?
Does the guy at the sharp end hand over his pocket book to the blunt end when he is off duty, the blunt end transcribes then hands back the pocket book next time the guy has to go on duty? (unlikely)
Does he write a report and hand it over either electronically or scribe then cleft stick runner? (probably)
Does he have a PHD connected to HOLMES so he can input data as it happens. (this would be best)
I ask this simply because the more links the more chance of error and there seems to be the idea that we should sneer at a police force that using something other HOLMES.
So fundamentally it is a system that is historical which has a fast retrieval rate and may have some contemporaneous whizzy bits in it.
So far so good. Nothing earth shattering there. Multi national corporations have been using similar for 20 years or so.

So between the sharp end and the blunt end there is no pencil sharpener in any major incident room?

[Brietta]

Sorry, can't remember the thread.

In the one where Martin Smith's additional information is noted, our evidence comes from Braunstone (???), just outside Leicester.  It was keyed in by a 'HOLMES indexer'.

That suggests to me they have folk at the front end whose expertise is sticking info into HOLMES in a way that HOLMES can make the most of it.

Quite how one can do that without a good understanding of the case, the incident, or the incident scene is defeating me at the moment.

However, the info on HOLMES makes it clear that once rolled out fully in 2004, the HOLMES of every police force in the UK was connected to the HOLMES of every other.  Work carried out by LP should have been one of the easier bits to load up.  Unless OG wanted it indexed in quite a different manner.

I would suggest the person inputting the data would require no understanding of the case, the incident or the incident scene.  Just accurate and fast typing skills.

They could not alter by one iota anything said by a witness ... all they would be doing would be entering the facts as they appeared on whatever medium had been used to record them.

Have I misunderstood what your post is saying?

[Alice Purjorick]

So between the sharp end and the blunt end there is no pencil sharpener in any major incident room?

I cannot conceive of any organisation that could operate without FLYNs

[ShiningInLuz]

I would suggest the person inputting the data would require no understanding of the case, the incident or the incident scene.  Just accurate and fast typing skills.

They could not alter by one iota anything said by a witness ... all they would be doing would be entering the facts as they appeared on whatever medium had been used to record them.

Have I misunderstood what your post is saying?

I believe you have understood my post, and that we merely have different opinions of what may be happening here.

I get from the Martin Smith/HOLMES post that someone has had some training in using HOLMES before data entry.  That is pretty standard.  People generally get training in the use of a major software system, before they are allowed to run rampant.

I don't think HOLMES indexes itself.  Clue 1, there would be no need for a 'HOLMES indexer'.  Clue 2.  It appears HOLMES needed to be told that Portugal was out of country.  There are other clues, but I don't want to be pedantic.

The thread is about the general capabilities of HOLMES.  I have no particular expertise or experience re how OG deploys it.

Sorry, still can't get Smileys to work.  Consider this a thumbs-up.

 

[G-Unit]

Are you suggesting that there is no validation process once someone has typed in an entry?

I can say there is definitely no validation process. That would involve another person looking at the source of every entry to make sure a mistake hadn't been made. When thousands of transactions are entered each day that's not possible. Staff are trained, but mistakes happen. I once worked on the helpdesk of a very large company. A supplier rang in a panic. His bank account had been swollen considerably by a payment he definitely wasn't expecting. The person entering the transaction had made a mistake entering the currency. I think the invoice was in Portuguese Escudos, funnily enough, and it had been entered as British pounds. Th exchange rate was something like one pound = 250 Escudos.

[Carana]

I can say there is definitely no validation process. That would involve another person looking at the source of every entry to make sure a mistake hadn't been made. When thousands of transactions are entered each day that's not possible. Staff are trained, but mistakes happen. I once worked on the helpdesk of a very large company. A supplier rang in a panic. His bank account had been swollen considerably by a payment he definitely wasn't expecting. The person entering the transaction had made a mistake entering the currency. I think the invoice was in Portuguese Escudos, funnily enough, and it had been entered as British pounds. Th exchange rate was something like one pound = 250 Escudos.

I can imagine the panic...


HOLMES2 does have a validation process, according to the powerpoint presentation, unless that function had never had the parameters filled in to enable it to function.

What did Leicester Police use to manage the Major Incident Room?

[ShiningInLuz]

I can imagine the panic...


HOLMES2 does have a validation process, according to the powerpoint presentation, unless that function had never had the parameters filled in to enable it to function.

What did Leicester Police use to manage the Major Incident Room?

I've no doubt HOLMES 2 has validation, but the question is, how useful is it?  It would reject 25.15 as a time of day.  It would not be able to tell if someone had turned 10.41 into 10.14.

The site says HOLMES 2 was rolled out to every police force in the UK by 2004.  The Martin Smith entry says LP entered it into HOLMES.

[Carana]

I've no doubt HOLMES 2 has validation, but the question is, how useful is it?  It would reject 25.15 as a time of day.  It would not be able to tell if someone had turned 10.41 into 10.14.

The site says HOLMES 2 was rolled out to every police force in the UK by 2004.  The Martin Smith entry says LP entered it into HOLMES.

Typos are no doubt a problem.

However, correlation with phone records would be able to distinguish 10:14 from 10:41, I would have thought, except when anomalies also appear in phone records. In such cases, perhaps figuring out the issues may be a task to assign to an officer or even to a sub-team if time was of the essence?

[Carana]

Not just typos... but misunderstandings or errors that can creep in.


This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and
no human remains were found. The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the
vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the
boot area. Forensic samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a
forensic laboratory in the U.K.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

That's not correct, is it?

Keela alerted behind the passenger's side (i.e., the right-hand side of the boot when looking in from the boot. The driver's side is on the left).