HOLMES 2 and the search for Madeleine McCann.

[Mr Gray]

His major ology is in doing that.

Another retort that adds absolutely nothing to the debate.

[Mr Gray]

both replies by slart and al were ad hom remarks that add nothing to the debate...the irony is they cannot see it...oh the irony...feel free to critique the logic in my posts...you will not be able

[Alfred R Jones]

Oh dear, where do I start with this?

I have already stated that I do not know what idea sparked OG to dig in an area that makes no sense.  So why do you keep banging on about it?

I note that your debating style has been called into question today.  IMO, your debating style is lacking.  You have added nothing of substance whatsoever with this post.

How can you know that a dig in a certain area makes no sense (to you), if by your own admission you don't know what intelligence OG were working with in the first place? 

[Mr Gray]

His major ology is in doing that.

if my ology was such I would be a pauper like some on this forum...do you understand how much it costs to put seven children through independent education

[ShiningInLuz]

So which part of this search as described by the Guardian do you find completely untenable?
---------------------

Police need to move earth covering a corrugated iron sheet and use shovels to do so - problem?
Police discover the presence of what appears to be a grave-like hole using ground penetrating radar - are they just supposed to ignore it?  Should they not have bothered to use such radar at all on the basis that digging a hole in central PdL would be hard work and noisy?

Can I find a part of it that is completely untenable?  I do believe I can.

Is it all completely untenable?  Nope, I can't claim that.

Let me see.  Do I think OG spent, was it 6 working days investigating central Luz, to examine one site, complete with corrugated tin roof, complete with it being obscured from view by a mound of what on 3 May 2007, was fresh earth?  No, I think this is completely untenable.

First, I don't think OG would have pratted around for that length of time if they were aware in advance that a pre-dug hole existed there.

Second, I don't think OG typed into HOLMES, we have had a tip off there is a pre-dug hole in this location, what should we to do?  To which HOLMES replied, go forth and dig it.  That strikes me as insulting OG, so I will duck out of that one.

Third, on 4 May, that hole was either covered by fresh earth, or it was packed earth, or it was vegetation.  The latter two rule out any connection with Madeleine.  Unless you are contending that some dimwit came back later, to use a pre-dug hole in the centre of Luz.  Sorry, but that is getting too surreal for words.

Fourth, I happened to live in St James, the development on the NE of the mound.  I also spent just under a year in the Paraíso, the development immediately to the west of the mound.  The development was looked after by a person currently residing elsewhere in Luz.  He pops up, unnamed, in one of the media stories relating to the mound dig.  The mound was one of his dog-walking areas of choice in those days, being next door to his property.  His information is that the mound was searched by locals in the days after Madeleine's disappearance.

Fifth, the scenario changes only slightly.  There was a pre-dug hole.  It was covered over.  The Guardian suggests the hole was around for a long time, so the children could play in it.  Someone now needs to truck in fresh earth.  Or to spend hours in a laborious and noisy dig in central Luz.

To summarise.  Do I believe that someone used a pre-dug hole, packed it over with earth, and that this was not noticed in the searches?  I find this idea untenable.

[Alfred R Jones]

Can I find a part of it that is completely untenable?  I do believe I can.

Is it all completely untenable?  Nope, I can't claim that.

Let me see.  Do I think OG spent, was it 6 working days investigating central Luz, to examine one site, complete with corrugated tin roof, complete with it being obscured from view by a mound of what on 3 May 2007, was fresh earth?  No, I think this is completely untenable.

First, I don't think OG would have pratted around for that length of time if they were aware in advance that a pre-dug hole existed there.

Second, I don't think OG typed into HOLMES, we have had a tip off there is a pre-dug hole in this location, what should we to do?  To which HOLMES replied, go forth and dig it.  That strikes me as insulting OG, so I will duck out of that one.

Third, on 4 May, that hole was either covered by fresh earth, or it was packed earth, or it was vegetation.  The latter two rule out any connection with Madeleine.  Unless you are contending that some dimwit came back later, to use a pre-dug hole in the centre of Luz.  Sorry, but that is getting too surreal for words.

Fourth, I happened to live in St James, the development on the NE of the mound.  I also spent just under a year in the Paraíso, the development immediately to the west of the mound.  The development was looked after by a person currently residing elsewhere in Luz.  He pops up, unnamed, in one of the media stories relating to the mound dig.  The mound was one of his dog-walking areas of choice in those days, being next door to his property.  His information is that the mound was searched by locals in the days after Madeleine's disappearance.

Fifth, the scenario changes only slightly.  There was a pre-dug hole.  It was covered over.  The Guardian suggests the hole was around for a long time, so the children could play in it.  Someone now needs to truck in fresh earth.  Or to spend hours in a laborious and noisy dig in central Luz.

To summarise.  Do I believe that someone used a pre-dug hole, packed it over with earth, and that this was not noticed in the searches?  I find this idea untenable.

what did OG spend 6 days in PdL doing then?  Just how many holes can you dig in 6 days, taking into account the fact that the earth is like concrete and they only had expensive picks and shovels at their disposal?

[ShiningInLuz]

what did OG spend 6 days in PdL doing then?  Just how many holes can you dig in 6 days, taking into account the fact that the earth is like concrete and they only had expensive picks and shovels at their disposal?

Back to you.

You can't dig many holes in Luz.  The idea that you can dig many holes in central Luz in the midst of a search by MW, in the midst of a busy part of Luz, on a scale of zero to 10, defines a perfect zero.

Hang on.  "They only had expensive picks and shovels at their disposal"?  I thought they had ground-penetrating radar.  And sniffer dogs of the highest quality?  Horses.  Armed GNR officers.  That's what I saw.  Did they have any intelligence breaks you can quote.  Or were they just lumped with HOLMES?

Credit to the OG team.  I know for a fact that on one lunchtime break they turned up in what in the files is the Vale Verde restaurant.  Now a Brazilian buffet. It has a good reputation for decent food at a reasonable price.  Well worth a visit.  I doubt this intelligence came out of HOLMES 2.

[Alfred R Jones]

Back to you.

You can't dig many holes in Luz.  The idea that you can dig many holes in central Luz in the midst of a search by MW, in the midst of a busy part of Luz, on a scale of zero to 10, defines a perfect zero.

Hang on.  "They only had expensive picks and shovels at their disposal"?  I thought they had ground-penetrating radar.  And sniffer dogs of the highest quality?  Horses.  Armed GNR officers.  That's what I saw.  Did they have any intelligence breaks you can quote.  Or were they just lumped with HOLMES?

Credit to the OG team.  I know for a fact that on one lunchtime break they turned up in what in the files is the Vale Verde restaurant.  Now a Brazilian buffet. It has a good reputation for decent food at a reasonable price.  Well worth a visit.  I doubt this intelligence came out of HOLMES 2.

So if they didn't dig many holes then there must have been quite a few hours (between lunches) in which they must have been doing other stuff - any ideas what ?

[misty]

Back to you.

You can't dig many holes in Luz.  The idea that you can dig many holes in central Luz in the midst of a search by MW, in the midst of a busy part of Luz, on a scale of zero to 10, defines a perfect zero.

Hang on.  "They only had expensive picks and shovels at their disposal"?  I thought they had ground-penetrating radar.  And sniffer dogs of the highest quality?  Horses.  Armed GNR officers.  That's what I saw.  Did they have any intelligence breaks you can quote.  Or were they just lumped with HOLMES?

Credit to the OG team.  I know for a fact that on one lunchtime break they turned up in what in the files is the Vale Verde restaurant.  Now a Brazilian buffet. It has a good reputation for decent food at a reasonable price.  Well worth a visit.  I doubt this intelligence came out of HOLMES 2.

Isn't the Vale Verde almost opposite the campsite where someone had a job as a night watchman on 3rd May?

[ShiningInLuz]

Isn't the Vale Verde almost opposite the campsite where someone had a job as a night watchman on 3rd May?

Vale Verde was basically opposite the campsite.  Sorry, I know nothing about a night watchman.

[Alfred R Jones]

re the searches:

"Police have not spoken about the intelligence that led them to the scrubland, which is thought to be one of three sites of interest in Praia da Luz".

[misty]

Vale Verde was basically opposite the campsite.  Sorry, I know nothing about a night watchman.

 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LUIS_ANTONIO.htm
05-Processo Vol V pages 1214 to 1218
 

 
Witness testimony of Joao Crisostomo Vieira Olim Junior 2007.05.14
*snipped*
- He explains that on that date he was in Almadena in the morning doing his part-time work described above.
--- Having spent the morning cleaning and disinfecting several private pools in that area he stopped work at 12h00.
--- Then he will have gone to L.A.'s house to park the car there, then he will have walked home on foot to Rua da Estrema ... in Lagos, where he will have rested, as usual, given that he had a night shift from 24h00 to 08h00 as nightw..ch at the Valverde campsite.
--- Later, at 18h30, he would have prepared himself for a Jehovah's Witness meeting which he attended between 20h30 and 22h30.
--- He states that at a time he does recall exactly, but between 18h30 and 20h00, he will have eaten his dinner at home.
--- The above [prayer] meeting being over, he will have returned home where he changed into his uniform and left for the Valverde campsite where he would have been the entire early morning of 4 May fulfilling his job as nightw..ch
========================================================================

[ShiningInLuz]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LUIS_ANTONIO.htm
05-Processo Vol V pages 1214 to 1218
 

 
Witness testimony of Joao Crisostomo Vieira Olim Junior 2007.05.14
*snipped*
- He explains that on that date he was in Almadena in the morning doing his part-time work described above.
--- Having spent the morning cleaning and disinfecting several private pools in that area he stopped work at 12h00.
--- Then he will have gone to L.A.'s house to park the car there, then he will have walked home on foot to Rua da Estrema ... in Lagos, where he will have rested, as usual, given that he had a night shift from 24h00 to 08h00 as nightw..ch at the Valverde campsite.
--- Later, at 18h30, he would have prepared himself for a Jehovah's Witness meeting which he attended between 20h30 and 22h30.
--- He states that at a time he does recall exactly, but between 18h30 and 20h00, he will have eaten his dinner at home.
--- The above [prayer] meeting being over, he will have returned home where he changed into his uniform and left for the Valverde campsite where he would have been the entire early morning of 4 May fulfilling his job as nightw..ch
========================================================================

Thank you, I now remember reading this statement before.

I cannot connect this statement to the case in any significant way.

It does describe a facet of life over here though.  There are many people who have to take up two s****y jobs just to scrape by.

Oddly, that may be significant, but as I cannot come close to proving it, I will not go there.

[G-Unit]

You obviously hold Operation Grange in great esteem.  If you think my description of what they meant by "forensic examination" is far of the mark, perhaps you could give us your view, seeing has how you seem to believe you are far more knowledgeable and logical than me.

Operation Grange may be made up of extremely talented officers, it may not. It may be carrying out a ground-up investigation or it may be restricted to investigating an abduction. The Metropolitan Police have a mixed track record in recent years. I take anything DCI Redwood said as partly PR. The story of crecheman damaged Redwood's credibility for anyone with knowledge of the Ocean Club layout, it had an air of hammering a square peg into a round hole. If the parents and their friends are not suspects then why wouldn't he take their timeline at
face value?

[Alfred R Jones]

Operation Grange may be made up of extremely talented officers, it may not. It may be carrying out a ground-up investigation or it may be restricted to investigating an abduction. The Metropolitan Police have a mixed track record in recent years. I take anything DCI Redwood said as partly PR. The story of crecheman damaged Redwood's credibility for anyone with knowledge of the Ocean Club layout, it had an air of hammering a square peg into a round hole. If the parents and their friends are not suspects then why wouldn't he take their timeline at
face value?

So what do you understand he meant by the term "forensic examination"?