Wandering Off Topic

[G-Unit]

If you read Grimes claim in the files... The wh sentence.. Its clear Grime is referring to specifically an alert to roadkill or food as a false positive. This is verifiable. As VS points out.... This claim does not mean Eddie has never given a false alert... That would be impossible to verify. Amaral and sceptics have taken this statement to mean Eddie was a super dog who was never wrong. Why has Grime never corrected this falsehood.. Eddie does not  have a 100% record

He also discusses handler cuing and believes his methods rule that out. Do you have evidence that Eddie didn't have a 100% record?

[Vertigo Swirl]

He also discusses handler cuing and believes his methods rule that out. Do you have evidence that Eddie didn't have a 100% record?

I wasn’t aware that Grime had come up with a solution that rules out handler bias - do you have a cite to this discussion, and also to the independent acceditation which confirms his success in this endeavour?

[Rossb]

Apologies I didn’t mean you.

The point is unless we have much more information about the cases Eddie was involved in we have no real basis to question Grime’s claim.

Grime mentioned they never alerted to rotting meat based things over 200 or 200 times. I think thats where he means no false positive.
The evrd was deployed i think 17 or 21 times but with different handler(s) out of those investigations the evrd found five bodies 2 of which in the same case. But also with help of clues and circumstantial evidence. That is good at least we know they work. However its physically impossible to know every bark is were a corpse has been because if no body is found or cctv it cant be corroborated as well as a confession.
They certainly have not been involved in 200 cases i suspect. That is a lot.

[G-Unit]

I wasn’t aware that Grime had come up with a solution that rules out handler bias - do you have a cite to this discussion, and also to the independent acceditation which confirms his success in this endeavour?

My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler
cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour.
This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops
handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and
investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour
other than to direct the search.
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

[Mr Gray]

He also discusses handler cuing and believes his methods rule that out. Do you have evidence that Eddie didn't have a 100% record?

Why should I need to.. Grime has never claimed it. If a claim is made then its up to the claimant to prove it.

Grime can and does claim what he likes.... Its in his business interests to... But he has no real evidence to support his claims. Grime now says that Eddie was not a reliable cadaver dog because he wasn't trained solely on human remains.
Its a fact that Grime was starting his business in 2007 and had a financial interest in the worth of the dog alerts. Its also a fact that residual scent detectionas inteiigence was in its infancy in 2007... With no scientific evidence to support it

[Rossb]

My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler
cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour.
This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops
handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and
investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour
other than to direct the search.
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

The other thing for yhings like this is the onset of olfactory. Their are different studies which indicate dofferent time onsets.

[Mr Gray]

My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler
cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour.
This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops
handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and
investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour
other than to direct the search.
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Grime has a conflict of interest... The whole point about bias is the handler is not aware of it

[Mr Gray]

I can't see how anyone cannot realise that SY and the Germans are happy to ignore all Grimes claims...

[Mr Gray]

If what Grime claims re his dogs are true then the Mc's are guilty... Grime has far too much faith in his dogs imo.

[Vertigo Swirl]

My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler
cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour.
This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops
handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and
investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour
other than to direct the search.
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

In other words the handler influences their behaviour.  This is very vague and unscientific.  It certainly does not rule out handler bias.  Unless Grime can produce peer reviewed, independent corroborative studies to back up his claims I remain deeply sceptical, as I sure you would if you weren't already subject to your own biases in this case.

[G-Unit]

Grime mentioned they never alerted to rotting meat based things over 200 or 200 times. I think thats where he means no false positive.
The evrd was deployed i think 17 or 21 times but with different handler(s) out of those investigations the evrd found five bodies 2 of which in the same case. But also with help of clues and circumstantial evidence. That is good at least we know they work. However its physically impossible to know every bark is were a corpse has been because if no body is found or cctv it cant be corroborated as well as a confession.
They certainly have not been involved in 200 cases i suspect. That is a lot.

I think you need cites to support some of your declarations. I've bolded the ones which need cites.

[Wonderfulspam]

I can't see how anyone cannot realise that SY and the Germans are happy to ignore all Grimes claims...

Not getting them anywhere though is it.

[G-Unit]

In other words the handler influences their behaviour.  This is very vague and unscientific.  It certainly does not rule out handler bias.  Unless Grime can produce peer reviewed, independent corroborative studies to back up his claims I remain deeply sceptical, as I sure you would if you weren't already subject to your own biases in this case.

If a handler can trigger an alert then the Pavlovian training has either been carried out wrongly or it doesn't work. Eddie was conditioned from an early age to bark only in one situation; when he detected a certain scent. That was what triggered his bark, nothing else, and it was not a concious decision by the dog.

[Eleanor]

If a handler can trigger an alert then the Pavlovian training has either been carried out wrongly or it doesn't work. Eddie was conditioned from an early age to bark only in one situation; when he detected a certain scent. That was what triggered his bark, nothing else, and it was not a concious decision by the dog.

Not true.  Eddie was conditioned at an early age as a Victim Recovery Dog to alert to Blood.

[Mr Gray]

If a handler can trigger an alert then the Pavlovian training has either been carried out wrongly or it doesn't work. Eddie was conditioned from an early age to bark only in one situation; when he detected a certain scent. That was what triggered his bark, nothing else, and it was not a concious decision by the dog.

All opinion with no real evidence to back it up...If the alerts are relaible why are sy and BKA ignoring them.