Wandering Off Topic

[G-Unit]

Guernica

"The Bombing of Guernica, 1937," EyeWitness to History, www.eyewitnesstohistory.com (2005).

You said ...
"Cobblers.

Do you have any clue as to what fascism means?"   http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7060.msg564847#msg564847
___________________________________________________________

Lest we forget ... "a picture is worth more than  thousand words" and far from 'misrepresenting' fascism 'Guernica' has always been for me, the epitome of the evils of the fascism which my parents' generation fought a war against.
A war against fascism in Europe which in the beginning gave us Guernica; a war against fascism the justness of which was proved when the allies liberated the concentration camps of Europe.

I think you are confused, but please don't try to equate Portugal with Nazi Germany.

The number of refugees that has escaped through Portugal during the war has estimates that range from one hundred thousand to one million, an impressive number considering the size of the country's population at that time (circa 6 million).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Portugal#World_War_II

[Vertigo Swirl]

Mussolini’s Italy was a fascist state but they weren’t as beastly to the Jews as Hitler’s Germany, so not sure what that has got to do with the price of fish.  I don’t think Jew-hating is a distinctly fascist thing - just ask Jeremy Corbyn.

[G-Unit]

Mussolini’s Italy was a fascist state but they weren’t as beastly to the Jews as Hitler’s Germany, so not sure what that has got to do with the price of fish.  I don’t think Jew-hating is a distinctly fascist thing - just ask Jeremy Corbyn.

I agree. Trying to relate the two things is a non starter.

[The General]

Mussolini’s Italy was a fascist state but they weren’t as beastly to the Jews as Hitler’s Germany, so not sure what that has got to do with the price of fish.  I don’t think Jew-hating is a distinctly fascist thing - just ask Jeremy Corbyn.

Opportunity and scale being two main differences. Both states began fostering contempt for supposed cabals of 'judeo-bolsheviks' being to blame for The Great Depression. Hitler, the opportunist and absolute lunatic seized the model and used it at a time of total flux to instil National Socialism at a time when the Weimar Republic was on its knees. Italy was still a monarchy aligned to the Catholic church past 1945, and Mussolini was actually arrested by the King in '43 - and the country then fell in to civil war - during a war!

[Brietta]

I think you are confused, but please don't try to equate Portugal with Nazi Germany.

The number of refugees that has escaped through Portugal during the war has estimates that range from one hundred thousand to one million, an impressive number considering the size of the country's population at that time (circa 6 million).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Portugal#World_War_II

Snip
During World War II under the dictatorship of Salazar, Portugal was allegedly a so-called “neutral” nation, however it was clearly and unofficially pro-Hitler.
The Portuguese government issued the wicked “Circular 14” to all its diplomats to deny safe haven to refugees, including explicitly Jews, Russians and stateless persons.
But a man defied these dreadful orders and raised the voice of his consciousness, saving 30.000 persons from a certain death.
Aristides de Sousa Mendes was severely punished by Salazar, who deprived him from his job and from any form of earning a living, which proved to be tragic, since Sousa Mendes had 15 children, who were blacklisted and prevented to attend university.
____________________________________________________________________

  ... Aristides de Sousa Mendes informed the Rabi that he would issue the visas, for he knew that the refugees were doomed to die on the horrific Nazi concentration camps.

The house of the family – Casa do Passal located in Cabanas de Viriato, Viseu – was repossessed by the bank and eventually sold to cover debts.
The Judaic Association of Lisbon was the only help that the Sousa Mendes family had, providing them with food and medical assistance.
Aristides de Sousa Mendes died on April 3rd 1954 in poverty, but he fought for the justice of his deeds until his last breath.
https://www.centerofportugal.com/article/aristides-de-sousa-mendes-the-insubordinate-consul/
____________________________________________________________________



Did you even bother to look up Eleanor's post about Aristides de Sousa Mendes: the insubordinate consul  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7060.msg564861#msg564861 who was one of the Greatest and bravest sons of Portugal who suffered because he followed his conscience in the stance he took against fascism?

[The General]

Snip
During World War II under the dictatorship of Salazar, Portugal was allegedly a so-called “neutral” nation, however it was clearly and unofficially pro-Hitler.
The Portuguese government issued the wicked “Circular 14” to all its diplomats to deny safe haven to refugees, including explicitly Jews, Russians and stateless persons.
But a man defied these dreadful orders and raised the voice of his consciousness, saving 30.000 persons from a certain death.
Aristides de Sousa Mendes was severely punished by Salazar, who deprived him from his job and from any form of earning a living, which proved to be tragic, since Sousa Mendes had 15 children, who were blacklisted and prevented to attend university.
____________________________________________________________________

  ... Aristides de Sousa Mendes informed the Rabi that he would issue the visas, for he knew that the refugees were doomed to die on the horrific Nazi concentration camps.

The house of the family – Casa do Passal located in Cabanas de Viriato, Viseu – was repossessed by the bank and eventually sold to cover debts.
The Judaic Association of Lisbon was the only help that the Sousa Mendes family had, providing them with food and medical assistance.
Aristides de Sousa Mendes died on April 3rd 1954 in poverty, but he fought for the justice of his deeds until his last breath.
https://www.centerofportugal.com/article/aristides-de-sousa-mendes-the-insubordinate-consul/
____________________________________________________________________



Did you even bother to look up Eleanor's post about Aristides de Sousa Mendes: the insubordinate consul  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7060.msg564861#msg564861 who was one of the Greatest and bravest sons of Portugal who suffered because he followed his conscience in the stance he took against fascism?

Very admirable, but this too is a little more complicated. Circular 14 was more an economic decision, rather than an ideology. And, in fact, when the pogrom started Salazar made a stand as I recall.

[G-Unit]

Snip
During World War II under the dictatorship of Salazar, Portugal was allegedly a so-called “neutral” nation, however it was clearly and unofficially pro-Hitler.
The Portuguese government issued the wicked “Circular 14” to all its diplomats to deny safe haven to refugees, including explicitly Jews, Russians and stateless persons.
But a man defied these dreadful orders and raised the voice of his consciousness, saving 30.000 persons from a certain death.
Aristides de Sousa Mendes was severely punished by Salazar, who deprived him from his job and from any form of earning a living, which proved to be tragic, since Sousa Mendes had 15 children, who were blacklisted and prevented to attend university.
____________________________________________________________________

  ... Aristides de Sousa Mendes informed the Rabi that he would issue the visas, for he knew that the refugees were doomed to die on the horrific Nazi concentration camps.

The house of the family – Casa do Passal located in Cabanas de Viriato, Viseu – was repossessed by the bank and eventually sold to cover debts.
The Judaic Association of Lisbon was the only help that the Sousa Mendes family had, providing them with food and medical assistance.
Aristides de Sousa Mendes died on April 3rd 1954 in poverty, but he fought for the justice of his deeds until his last breath.
https://www.centerofportugal.com/article/aristides-de-sousa-mendes-the-insubordinate-consul/
____________________________________________________________________



Did you even bother to look up Eleanor's post about Aristides de Sousa Mendes: the insubordinate consul  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7060.msg564861#msg564861 who was one of the Greatest and bravest sons of Portugal who suffered because he followed his conscience in the stance he took against fascism?

As usual you seem interested only in besmirching Portugal by any means at your disposal. Portugal trod a difficult path with pressure from both sides during WW2. In Churchill's opinion they managed the situation satisfactorily;

I take this opportunity of placing on record the appreciation by His Majesty's Government, which I have no doubt is shared by Parliament and the British nation, of the attitude of the Portuguese Government, whose loyalty to their British Ally never wavered in the darkest hours of the war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_during_World_War_II

[The General]

As usual you seem interested only in besmirching Portugal by any means at your disposal. Portugal trod a difficult path with pressure from both sides during WW2. In Churchill's opinion they managed the situation satisfactorily;

I take this opportunity of placing on record the appreciation by His Majesty's Government, which I have no doubt is shared by Parliament and the British nation, of the attitude of the Portuguese Government, whose loyalty to their British Ally never wavered in the darkest hours of the war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_during_World_War_II

They were never a fascist state in the pure sense. Dictatorship, yes, technically, but it was never going to be a Nation state in the quasi-marxist sense. Yes they were under extreme pressure regarding immigration / refugee influx, as other countries were primarily because they were neutral. We must remember that, as soon as Hitler invaded Poland, then of course most refugees were Jewish, as Poland was home to the biggest concentration of Jewish population in Europe. Foreign and domestic policy / conservatism / missplaced imperialism all led to a parlous economic state in the early 20th century and this country of limited means simply couldn't cope with the influx.

I don't understand this continued referencing of alleged Portuguese shortcomings almost as a means of propping up this third-world, backward looking, insular, despotic regime with a toxic, brutalistic  police force.

[Mr Gray]

As usual you seem interested only in besmirching Portugal by any means at your disposal. Portugal trod a difficult path with pressure from both sides during WW2. In Churchill's opinion they managed the situation satisfactorily;

I take this opportunity of placing on record the appreciation by His Majesty's Government, which I have no doubt is shared by Parliament and the British nation, of the attitude of the Portuguese Government, whose loyalty to their British Ally never wavered in the darkest hours of the war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_during_World_War_II

Portugal didn't tread as difficult a path as the UK..
How many people did the UK save from the tyranny of Hitler.

[The General]

Portugal didn't tread as difficult a path as the UK..
How many people did the UK save from the tyranny of Hitler.

Save? In the literal sense? At the time?
Lemmeesee. Difficult one this. In fact........impossible to know.

I mean, are you driving down the path of why Portugal remained neutral?

[Eleanor]

Snip
During World War II under the dictatorship of Salazar, Portugal was allegedly a so-called “neutral” nation, however it was clearly and unofficially pro-Hitler.
The Portuguese government issued the wicked “Circular 14” to all its diplomats to deny safe haven to refugees, including explicitly Jews, Russians and stateless persons.
But a man defied these dreadful orders and raised the voice of his consciousness, saving 30.000 persons from a certain death.
Aristides de Sousa Mendes was severely punished by Salazar, who deprived him from his job and from any form of earning a living, which proved to be tragic, since Sousa Mendes had 15 children, who were blacklisted and prevented to attend university.
____________________________________________________________________

  ... Aristides de Sousa Mendes informed the Rabi that he would issue the visas, for he knew that the refugees were doomed to die on the horrific Nazi concentration camps.

The house of the family – Casa do Passal located in Cabanas de Viriato, Viseu – was repossessed by the bank and eventually sold to cover debts.
The Judaic Association of Lisbon was the only help that the Sousa Mendes family had, providing them with food and medical assistance.
Aristides de Sousa Mendes died on April 3rd 1954 in poverty, but he fought for the justice of his deeds until his last breath.
https://www.centerofportugal.com/article/aristides-de-sousa-mendes-the-insubordinate-consul/
____________________________________________________________________



Did you even bother to look up Eleanor's post about Aristides de Sousa Mendes: the insubordinate consul  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7060.msg564861#msg564861 who was one of the Greatest and bravest sons of Portugal who suffered because he followed his conscience in the stance he took against fascism?

There is a really good film about this.  How he trekked across the mountains from france, through Spain and into Portugal with some of the Jewish Refugees.

I think it was in French but that didn't matter as it was riveting in itself.  I really must watch it again now that my French has improved somewhat.

Thanks for doing that, Brietta.

[Eleanor]

Portugal didn't tread as difficult a path as the UK..
How many people did the UK save from the tyranny of Hitler.

Not enough.

[The General]

There is a really good film about this.  How he trekked across the mountains from france, through Spain and into Portugal with some of the Jewish Refugees.

I think it was in French but that didn't matter as it was riveting in itself.  I really must watch it again now that my French has improved somewhat.

Thanks for doing that, Brietta.

Technically the man was a liar, counterfeiter and traitor from what I've just read.
20th century political history is my thang, but I'll be honest, I'd never come across this dude.

[Mr Gray]

Save? In the literal sense? At the time?
Lemmeesee. Difficult one this. In fact........impossible to know.

I mean, are you driving down the path of why Portugal remained neutral?

I'm not driving down any path...I just don't think portugal deserve a great deal of credit for staying neutral... It was the easy option.
The UK could have ignored the suffering of those who Hitler opressed... They didn't take the easy option and deserve a lot of credit

[The General]

Not enough.

Well you know the story of how Chamberlain came back with a piece of paper in his arse pocket from Berlin and 'peace for our time'?
So maybe it could have been 'nearly all of them'. But probably not.