Wandering Off Topic

[Icanhandlethetruth]

What is investigative intelligence worth if it doesn't lead anywhere?

OK. Let's change scenario. Someone was burgled. The victim remembered seeing someone with a grey hoodie. A witness saw an identifiable person with a grey hoodie around the vicinity at the time.

Then what?

In your scenario, I would expect the investigation to interview the identifiable person and see if he had any exculpatory evidence that would exclude him for their enquiries. If he had they could, if he hadn’t he would stay on file as a person of interest. But in reality, I think they would probably just issue a crime number for insurance purposes.

[Brietta]

I think I finally have worked out your reluctance to accept that a forensically uncorroborated  cadaver dog alert can be used as evidence in a UK court.
You have seen with your own eyes PC Ryan Galloway giving such evidence in a murder case in 2019 so I always struggled to understand how you could say it was not evidence.
But I now believe you think we are suggesting that the convictions were achieved almost only because of the dog alert evidence. I am certainly not suggesting that and I don’t believe G-Unit is.
In all 3 cases you refer to, all the evidence was circumstantial, the dog alerts were a part of these circumstantial cases certainly not defining evidence just a strand of the whole part of the case. The only people who know the worth of the dog alert evidence are the 15 jurors who weighed up the evidence in these cases, maybe they were dismissed as insignificant and maybe they weren’t. But the fact is they were heard as evidence.

Fine for you to speak for yourself.  But has Gu lost the ability that you feel the need to explain her words and reasoning for her.  Fine by me.

There is a bit of abysmal lack of understanding of what constitutes circumstantial evidence in your post although granted that there is an element of one piece of evidence slotting into and corroborating another in every investigation and prosecution.
Take Emma Fauld's murder ~

Murderer Ross Willox’s hiking boot which linked him to the crime scene

Professor Lorna Dawson, who heads up the team of forensic experts at the James Hutton Institute in Aberdeen explained how microscopic traces of soil recovered from Willox’s boots were seized by police.

Prior to the forensics breakthrough police had been scouring a different part of the 500-square-mile forest landscape. They knew Willox, the last person to have seen Emma alive and the prime suspect, had previously worked on wind farms in the area. And, 24 hours after the Aberdeen team delivered its analysis, the search team found Emma’s body.

The samples from his boot linked Willox to the crime scene and were instrumental in his conviction on Tuesday after a six-week trial.
https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/emma-faulds-murder-soil-forensic/

Not to mention his fingerprint found on the seat adjustment lever of Emma's car which he had used to transport her body to what he had intended to be her final resting place.

[Icanhandlethetruth]

Fine for you to speak for yourself.  But has Gu lost the ability that you feel the need to explain her words and reasoning for her.  Fine by me.

There is a bit of abysmal lack of understanding of what constitutes circumstantial evidence in your post although granted that there is an element of one piece of evidence slotting into and corroborating another in every investigation and prosecution.
Take Emma Fauld's murder ~

Murderer Ross Willox’s hiking boot which linked him to the crime scene

Professor Lorna Dawson, who heads up the team of forensic experts at the James Hutton Institute in Aberdeen explained how microscopic traces of soil recovered from Willox’s boots were seized by police.

Prior to the forensics breakthrough police had been scouring a different part of the 500-square-mile forest landscape. They knew Willox, the last person to have seen Emma alive and the prime suspect, had previously worked on wind farms in the area. And, 24 hours after the Aberdeen team delivered its analysis, the search team found Emma’s body.

The samples from his boot linked Willox to the crime scene and were instrumental in his conviction on Tuesday after a six-week trial.
https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/emma-faulds-murder-soil-forensic/

Not to mention his fingerprint found on the seat adjustment lever of Emma's car which he had used to transport her body to what he had intended to be her final resting place.

Please explain what you mean about my lack of understanding of what constitutes circumstantial evidence.
G-Unit I am sure can speak for herself, I was at a loose end for an hour so thought I would reply to your post

[Icanhandlethetruth]

Fine for you to speak for yourself.  But has Gu lost the ability that you feel the need to explain her words and reasoning for her.  Fine by me.

There is a bit of abysmal lack of understanding of what constitutes circumstantial evidence in your post although granted that there is an element of one piece of evidence slotting into and corroborating another in every investigation and prosecution.
Take Emma Fauld's murder ~

Murderer Ross Willox’s hiking boot which linked him to the crime scene

Professor Lorna Dawson, who heads up the team of forensic experts at the James Hutton Institute in Aberdeen explained how microscopic traces of soil recovered from Willox’s boots were seized by police.

Prior to the forensics breakthrough police had been scouring a different part of the 500-square-mile forest landscape. They knew Willox, the last person to have seen Emma alive and the prime suspect, had previously worked on wind farms in the area. And, 24 hours after the Aberdeen team delivered its analysis, the search team found Emma’s body.

The samples from his boot linked Willox to the crime scene and were instrumental in his conviction on Tuesday after a six-week trial.
https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/emma-faulds-murder-soil-forensic/

Not to mention his fingerprint found on the seat adjustment lever of Emma's car which he had used to transport her body to what he had intended to be her final resting place.

Oh I see you think the fact the soil was on his boot from the body scene is not circumstantial, some would say yes some no.  It says his boots had possibly been there at some point in time, not that he killed her. Also he was her friend, he could argue that why would his fingerprints not be in her car? It seems pretty circumstantial to me but that wasn't really my point.

[Brietta]

Oh I see you think the fact the soil was on his boot from the body scene is not circumstantial, some would say yes some no.  It says his boots had possibly been there at some point in time, not that he killed her. Also he was her friend, he could argue that why would his fingerprints not be in her car? It seems pretty circumstantial to me but that wasn't really my point.

As police teams methodically searched the area, Dawson’s team were using science to narrow the hunt.

She said: “We used gas chromatography (the process whereby the various elements of a compound are separated into their distinct parts for individual analysis) in the evidential phase of the operation and showed the peat on the soles of the Timberland boots also had the same organic profile as was found at the scene.

“Our botanist identified the individual recovered mosses. From this we knew that the person who wore the boots had likely stood in the area where Emma was found. There was also an organic peat stain on the boots which showed they had been partially submerged in peaty water.

“Puddles containing peaty water were located in the hollows between the clumps of moss and rushes at the scene. Trees had been planted around 2016 in that general area and may not have been felled for another 40 to 60 years, which might have left Emma hidden in the undergrowth.

“She was covered with clumps of mosses and the rushes which had been pulled from the ground a few metres away from her body in an attempt to conceal her.

“Soil can be distinctive in a range of chemical, physical and biological characteristics, including the soil organic profile, soil elemental composition and soil mineralogy. Depending on the type of soil, different methods are used in forensic case work. In this case, because of the organic nature of the soil, organic plant wax marker analysis was used. In addition, the distinctive plant community added another link to the scene.”

Without the police and forensic experts’ efforts Emma’s body may never have been found and her family would not have known if she was alive or dead. Dawson added: “What the police search did was to return Emma to her family and give them that at least. It would be hugely painful for them to be left without that knowledge.”
https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/emma-faulds-murder-soil-forensic/

For information
That is an example of direct forensic evidence as is the murderer's DNA found under the driver's seat of Emma's car.
Both examples of direct evidence which helped to nail a killer.

[G-Unit]

As police teams methodically searched the area, Dawson’s team were using science to narrow the hunt.

She said: “We used gas chromatography (the process whereby the various elements of a compound are separated into their distinct parts for individual analysis) in the evidential phase of the operation and showed the peat on the soles of the Timberland boots also had the same organic profile as was found at the scene.

“Our botanist identified the individual recovered mosses. From this we knew that the person who wore the boots had likely stood in the area where Emma was found. There was also an organic peat stain on the boots which showed they had been partially submerged in peaty water.

“Puddles containing peaty water were located in the hollows between the clumps of moss and rushes at the scene. Trees had been planted around 2016 in that general area and may not have been felled for another 40 to 60 years, which might have left Emma hidden in the undergrowth.

“She was covered with clumps of mosses and the rushes which had been pulled from the ground a few metres away from her body in an attempt to conceal her.

“Soil can be distinctive in a range of chemical, physical and biological characteristics, including the soil organic profile, soil elemental composition and soil mineralogy. Depending on the type of soil, different methods are used in forensic case work. In this case, because of the organic nature of the soil, organic plant wax marker analysis was used. In addition, the distinctive plant community added another link to the scene.”

Without the police and forensic experts’ efforts Emma’s body may never have been found and her family would not have known if she was alive or dead. Dawson added: “What the police search did was to return Emma to her family and give them that at least. It would be hugely painful for them to be left without that knowledge.”
https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/emma-faulds-murder-soil-forensic/

For information
That is an example of direct forensic evidence as is the murderer's DNA found under the driver's seat of Emma's car.
Both examples of direct evidence which helped to nail a killer.

It was certainly helpful to be able to connect the suspect's boots to the scene, but it was the cadaver dog which led them to the scene, after searching for many days and covering 200 miles.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-56821768

[Vertigo Swirl]

It was certainly helpful to be able to connect the suspect's boots to the scene, but it was the cadaver dog which led them to the scene, after searching for many days and covering 200 miles.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-56821768

I wonder how many false positives there were (if any) before the body was located.

[G-Unit]

I wonder how many false positives there were (if any) before the body was located.

As you don't know the answer why bother wondering? It couldn't be to try to cast doubt on the dog's abilities, could it?

[Carana]

For information
That is an example of direct forensic evidence as is the murderer's DNA found under the driver's seat of Emma's car.
Both examples of direct evidence which helped to nail a killer.

That reminds me of a missing-child / murder case in France in 2017.
 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43065000

Police cadaver dogs eventually found her remains down a snow-covered ravine, but after the suspect had finally confessed as to where to find the body... which he did once he had been confronted with evidence of an uncontaminated DNA sample in the depths of the boot of his car. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence against him, but nothing that couldn't be explained away until the police found that particular DNA sample.

AFAIK, the trial concerning the little girl hasn't been held yet, but he's recently been convicted for "voluntary homicide" of the young army chap (20 years, with 2/3 of the sentence behind bars).

[Vertigo Swirl]

As you don't know the answer why bother wondering? It couldn't be to try to cast doubt on the dog's abilities, could it?

As you are forever “wondering “ about things yourself that no one here knows the answer to I think that’s a bit rich.  It’s a very valid question which does not throw doubt on the dog’s ability to find a body, more a question about how many attempts it may have taken.  Should we not ask such questions?  I recall a televised police dog search for a body in which the dog positively alerted to a dead chick, which seemed to his handler to be perfectly acceptable and he even rewarded the dog for finding it.

[Brietta]

It was certainly helpful to be able to connect the suspect's boots to the scene, but it was the cadaver dog which led them to the scene, after searching for many days and covering 200 miles.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-56821768

You really don't bother to read links do you ~ Victim Recovery Dogs do carry out valuable work.  However I doubt if they are capable of carrying out a soil analysis enabling them to pin point a precise search area in a 500-square-mile forest - unless of course you know different  😁

[Vertigo Swirl]

As you don't know the answer why bother wondering? It couldn't be to try to cast doubt on the dog's abilities, could it?

An example of you asking a whole load of questions you don't know the answer to, so why bother?  It couldn't be to cast Gerry in a suspicious light could it?
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9636.90
"The video footage is very interesting with or without sound. Why are the twins so interested in what is happening to their left? Why aren't the two girls looking in that direction? Why isn't Gerry McCann smiling and relaxed like Fiona and Dianne?"

[Carana]

Whether or not certain jurisdictions allow uncorroborated dog alerts, I'm not sure what the point is of allowing it (or other types of "intelligence" in a trial. What about cases in which the defense is court-appointed and only had a couple of hours to rummage through the files prior to the trial? If there is no counter evidence / argument, the jury could be swayed towards accepting "expert testimony" at face value.

[Carana]

is anyone up for pretending to be a defense counsel countering uncorroborated dog alerts?

What background information would be helpful?
What questions would you ask?

[G-Unit]

You really don't bother to read links do you ~ Victim Recovery Dogs do carry out valuable work.  However I doubt if they are capable of carrying out a soil analysis enabling them to pin point a precise search area in a 500-square-mile forest - unless of course you know different  😁

Was just one search area pinpointed, or was it more a case of various possible areas of interest?