Author Topic: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...  (Read 140064 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2016, 08:15:02 AM »
Unless things have changed, this is NOT a tennis court at the tapas area of Ocean Club.

By changed, I mean
 a new row of mature trees,
 a new wall behind
 and a different coloured tennis court.  The Tapas Courts were green but both had a red surround.

I think that this image provides a an opportunity for a new myth as it stands.  Let's nip that in the bud now.





@ xtina in particular:

Notice how many of the kids are wearing trainers?

Crikey, all these irresponsible parents.   Fancy!

You really wouldn't believe it, would you?

How clever you are Sadie, the photo is a Mark Warner tennis class at anther resort. It shows the red and yellow balls which the tennis instructors use for children's tennis sessions. They are lighter than those used by adults.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2016, 10:27:08 AM »
Yes it's a one at a time session.  The coach speaks to one child, the nannies supervise the rest. At 3 years old there is little ball - racquet - eye co-ordination. The children just wouldn't be running around, racquet in hand, trying to hit balls indiscriminately. They're far more likely to whack the child next to them than hit a ball. Wearing sandals was not an issue - Madeleine was as safe in them as walking in the street or playing in the play area.
MW had only just taken over in 2007. It's highly unlikely they would have been fully equipped with the latest Mini-Tennis equipment (judging by reports about the rest of the public areas at the time), hence the use of standard tennis balls.

Marvelous logic. The McCanns said this photo was taken during a Mini tennis lesson. They must be believed. Therefore the lack of child weight tennis balls must be due to the unprofessionalism and lack of foresight of Mark Warner and/or their tennis coaches.

The fact that every photograph I have seen showing youngsters playing tennis at Mark Warner shows them using child weight tennis balls? Ignore them.

The fact that these balls are lighter so as not to damage a little one's wrist when hitting them? Never mind that.

The fact that these balls are lighter so as not to hurt a small child if they are hit by them? No worries.

There's all the difference in the world between a child playing tennis in the park with it's parents and playing at a well-regarded holiday resort with qualified tennis instructors. Anyone who suggests that Mark Warner and their instructors would be unaware/unconcerned about child safety, appropriate footwear and equipment should think again. Given their client base and the cost of their holidays would they really indulge in careless practices?





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Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2016, 10:46:34 AM »
Also ignore the comment in Kate's book that the children's lessons were on the court adjacent to gerrys (adult) lesson.  And after their lesson the children apparently went round collecting as many balls as they could find.  It was then that this photo was taken.  So as I assume the adult lessons were with standard tennis balls, that would account for Madeleine having an armful of standard tennis balls. 


Offline sadie

Re: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2016, 11:06:41 AM »
Marvelous logic. The McCanns said this photo was taken during a Mini tennis lesson. They must be believed. Therefore the lack of child weight tennis balls must be due to the unprofessionalism and lack of foresight of Mark Warner and/or their tennis coaches.

The fact that every photograph I have seen showing youngsters playing tennis at Mark Warner shows them using child weight tennis balls? Ignore them.

The fact that these balls are lighter so as not to damage a little one's wrist when hitting them? Never mind that.

The fact that these balls are lighter so as not to hurt a small child if they are hit by them? No worries.

There's all the difference in the world between a child playing tennis in the park with it's parents and playing at a well-regarded holiday resort with qualified tennis instructors. Anyone who suggests that Mark Warner and their instructors would be unaware/unconcerned about child safety, appropriate footwear and equipment should think again. Given their client base and the cost of their holidays would they really indulge in careless practices?
Thank you, Gunit, for your compliment in the previous post.

Now the case of the special tennis balls used by youngsters.  You are quite correct that different balls are generally used by youngsters.  I had already researched that, however as Misty suggests, did Mark Warner have them available at that time, so early in their first season?  I am right it was their first season at OC, was it not?

As for the balls hurting  a youngster if hit by one, have you ever seen a professional teaching a youngster to play?  They plop the ball over the net, just in the right place, at the very foot of the learner ... or should I say just the correct distance in front of and to the right of the youngster.  Even in the most unlikely case that the little one was hit with a normal weight ball, it would not hurt at all.

As the photograph shows, the youngsters wear open back flip flops, sandals .... anything .. so it seems that the professionals are not that bothered.   From the photograph, which you assure us is of another Mark Warner holiday complex, it seems that they also allow the youngsters to use a large, and maybe full size tennis racquet.

Plaese do not forget that Madeleine was also actually too young for the group she was placed in.  The other kids would be taller and stronger



Although it is my guess that as such an active, rough and tumble little girl (see videos with Gerry) Madeleine was stronger than she looked at forst glance.

Offline sadie

Re: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2016, 11:11:59 AM »
Also ignore the comment in Kate's book that the children's lessons were on the court adjacent to gerrys (adult) lesson.  And after their lesson the children apparently went round collecting as many balls as they could find.  It was then that this photo was taken.  So as I assume the adult lessons were with standard tennis balls, that would account for Madeleine having an armful of standard tennis balls.

Exactly my thoughts JP, but I hadn't got around to saying it yet.

Additionally, It seems that here we have trained instructors teaching the little ones on a court adjacent to a hard game being played?   Unless the youngsters cleaned up after the adults had stopped playing.  That is something that we do not know.

Offline G-Unit

Re: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2016, 12:39:01 PM »
Also ignore the comment in Kate's book that the children's lessons were on the court adjacent to gerrys (adult) lesson.  And after their lesson the children apparently went round collecting as many balls as they could find.  It was then that this photo was taken.  So as I assume the adult lessons were with standard tennis balls, that would account for Madeleine having an armful of standard tennis balls.

So what did Kate say? Her lesson was 9.15 to 10.15, Gerry's from 10.15 to 11.15.

The Mini's play finished at 11am and immediately after that the Fosters were booked in from 11am to 12 noon.

A nice story but as with all these nice stories it doesn't have any factual basis. By the time Gerry's lesson ended the Mini's were gone.

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Offline Alice Purjorick

"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline G-Unit

Re: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2016, 01:18:30 PM »
Thank you, Gunit, for your compliment in the previous post.

Now the case of the special tennis balls used by youngsters.  You are quite correct that different balls are generally used by youngsters.  I had already researched that, however as Misty suggests, did Mark Warner have them available at that time, so early in their first season?  I am right it was their first season at OC, was it not?

As for the balls hurting  a youngster if hit by one, have you ever seen a professional teaching a youngster to play?  They plop the ball over the net, just in the right place, at the very foot of the learner ... or should I say just the correct distance in front of and to the right of the youngster.  Even in the most unlikely case that the little one was hit with a normal weight ball, it would not hurt at all.

As the photograph shows, the youngsters wear open back flip flops, sandals .... anything .. so it seems that the professionals are not that bothered.   From the photograph, which you assure us is of another Mark Warner holiday complex, it seems that they also allow the youngsters to use a large, and maybe full size tennis racquet.

Plaese do not forget that Madeleine was also actually too young for the group she was placed in.  The other kids would be taller and stronger



Although it is my guess that as such an active, rough and tumble little girl (see videos with Gerry) Madeleine was stronger than she looked at forst glance.

Another statement which ignores the facts.

Madeleine's group was for 3-5 years. There were between 13 and 14 MW children in that age group. 3 were 4 years old. 10 or 11 were 3 years old. (Not sure about L Totman, 2 different ages recorded so she was either 2 0r 3)

In the Lobsters that day there were 7 children. 3 of them were 4 years old, 4 were 3 years old. At practically 4 Madeleine was in the middle of the age range, not the youngest and smallest at all.
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Offline misty

Re: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2016, 01:24:31 PM »
Marvelous logic. The McCanns said this photo was taken during a Mini tennis lesson. They must be believed. Therefore the lack of child weight tennis balls must be due to the unprofessionalism and lack of foresight of Mark Warner and/or their tennis coaches.

The fact that every photograph I have seen showing youngsters playing tennis at Mark Warner shows them using child weight tennis balls? Ignore them.

The fact that these balls are lighter so as not to damage a little one's wrist when hitting them? Never mind that.

The fact that these balls are lighter so as not to hurt a small child if they are hit by them? No worries.

There's all the difference in the world between a child playing tennis in the park with it's parents and playing at a well-regarded holiday resort with qualified tennis instructors. Anyone who suggests that Mark Warner and their instructors would be unaware/unconcerned about child safety, appropriate footwear and equipment should think again. Given their client base and the cost of their holidays would they really indulge in careless practices?

You're clearly not a tennis player, G-Unit.
Any professional coach would have a ball pick-up such as  https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=tennis+ball+collection+device&biw=1517&bih=714&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXqdic8dvLAhWDaRQKHUs9AtIQsAQIGw&dpr=0.9#imgrc=e6WUNwowEOP0QM%3A .
It's a great device & marvellous time-saver. Useful for storing all those balls, too.
Please note it's the weight of the racquet & the way it's gripped which causes damage to the wrist, not the weight of the ball
A standard tennis ball weighs between 55g & 60g. The low pressure training balls used for children under 8 weigh 41g. (approx 2oz against 1.5oz to we oldies)
The 2 MW instructors had only been contracted since late March. Presumably any existing equipment belonged to the Jonathan Markson coaches.

Offline G-Unit

Re: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2016, 01:56:52 PM »
You're clearly not a tennis player, G-Unit.
Any professional coach would have a ball pick-up such as  https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=tennis+ball+collection+device&biw=1517&bih=714&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXqdic8dvLAhWDaRQKHUs9AtIQsAQIGw&dpr=0.9#imgrc=e6WUNwowEOP0QM%3A .
It's a great device & marvellous time-saver. Useful for storing all those balls, too.
Please note it's the weight of the racquet & the way it's gripped which causes damage to the wrist, not the weight of the ball
A standard tennis ball weighs between 55g & 60g. The low pressure training balls used for children under 8 weigh 41g. (approx 2oz against 1.5oz to we oldies)
The 2 MW instructors had only been contracted since late March. Presumably any existing equipment belonged to the Jonathan Markson coaches.

Wrists are something a tennis coach would know about;

 a lighter ball to allow children the chance to hit properly without wrists giving way.
http://www.netmums.com/northcumbria/local/view/after-school-activities/tennis/city-tennis-clubs

The Mark Warner tennis equipment is provided by Service Line and their coaches are expected to work to that company's standards;
http://www.markwarner.co.uk/recruitment2/tennis/

Mark Warner has worked for many years in partnership with Service Line.
http://jobs.natives.co.uk/job/tennis-coach-561441c2b95ad/4767758

Of course they had ball containers, although if they picked up the balls why were the kids doing it, so I don't get your point?



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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2016, 02:42:10 PM »
You're clearly not a tennis player, G-Unit.
Any professional coach would have a ball pick-up such as  https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=tennis+ball+collection+device&biw=1517&bih=714&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXqdic8dvLAhWDaRQKHUs9AtIQsAQIGw&dpr=0.9#imgrc=e6WUNwowEOP0QM%3A .
It's a great device & marvellous time-saver. Useful for storing all those balls, too.
Please note it's the weight of the racquet & the way it's gripped which causes damage to the wrist, not the weight of the ball
A standard tennis ball weighs between 55g & 60g. The low pressure training balls used for children under 8 weigh 41g. (approx 2oz against 1.5oz to we oldies)
The 2 MW instructors had only been contracted since late March. Presumably any existing equipment belonged to the Jonathan Markson coaches.

Viewed strictly as a problem in mechanics that is not true. The training balls limit the velocity at which they can leave the racquet head and they are lighter. i.e the force when the ball hits the opponents racquet is reduced therefore the moment on the wrist is reduced. force = mass * velocity2.
The aggregation of marginal differences comes into play here, whether it makes any appreciable difference I'll leave for you to speculate on but it is a calculable difference. Boom boom.  ?{)(**

"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2016, 03:02:03 PM »
Viewed strictly as a problem in mechanics that is not true. The training balls limit the velocity at which they can leave the racquet head and they are lighter. i.e the force when the ball hits the opponents racquet is reduced therefore the moment on the wrist is reduced. force = mass * velocity2.
The aggregation of marginal differences comes into play here, whether it makes any appreciable difference I'll leave for you to speculate on but it is a calculable difference. Boom boom.  ?{)(**

The main reason for using training balls for younger children ( the Lta suggest under 11) is that they are slower - allowing more time for the child to return a shot.  There is a side benefit of being less painful if you get in the way of a well struck ball.

Offline blonk

Re: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2016, 04:04:16 PM »
Good grief - I look at that photo and see a happy, healthy smiling little girl enjoying gathering up as many tennis balls as she can.

But apparently I am quite wrong and this is a piccie of a child with scratched, marked and bruised arms and legs and has something wrong with one of her hands.    She has also apparently been forced into wearing really dangerous sandals by her wicked parents.    How she has managed such a big happy smile is a mystery - but no doubt that can be accounted for by photoshopping

Have I wondered into a parallel universe or do people actually believe this utter tosh?

Jeez.
On the other hand, when was this picture supposed to have been taken?

On Tuesday, according to Kate McCann.

On Thursday, say Jane and Rachael?

Oh well.

So who took it?

Kate says 'I did'.

Rachael says Jane did.

Oh well, what do these petty minutiae really matter, anyway.

But here's a thing.

Whatever you say about the 'contrast' in any photos, how can we reconcile the red and suntanned look of the girl in the Tennis Balls Photo - taken on Tuesday? - with the pale, untanned look of Madeleine at 2.29pm on Thursday in the 'Last Photo'? 

     

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2016, 05:21:29 PM »
The main reason for using training balls for younger children ( the Lta suggest under 11) is that they are slower - allowing more time for the child to return a shot.  There is a side benefit of being less painful if you get in the way of a well struck ball.

Dunno about all that chief, I was looking at it purely as problem in mechanics, as I said (if you read and digested my post that is). Are you saying the mechanical analysis is incorrect ? In that case you will not be arguing with a poster called Alice Purjorick but with Newton and Tim O'Shenko. Good luck with that one (two?) 8(0(*

But getting back to the plot we have a photo of a female child, standing on the edge of a tennis court, clutching a bunch of optic yellow tennis balls. The absence of spotty bits and stripey bits on the balls suggesting they are "standard" so maybe at the end of an adult game she had been playing at being a ball girl ?. Anyone have a better idea that's not too complicated and doesn't involve the balls being a batch without the normal coding made especially for that location that week ?
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: IS THIS TENNIS PHOTO REAL ...OR COULD IT BE FAKE...
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2016, 05:59:58 PM »
On the other hand, when was this picture supposed to have been taken?

On Tuesday, according to Kate McCann.

On Thursday, say Jane and Rachael?

Oh well.

So who took it?

Kate says 'I did'.

Rachael says Jane did.

Oh well, what do these petty minutiae really matter, anyway.

But here's a thing.

Whatever you say about the 'contrast' in any photos, how can we reconcile the red and suntanned look of the girl in the Tennis Balls Photo - taken on Tuesday? - with the pale, untanned look of Madeleine at 2.29pm on Thursday in the 'Last Photo'? 


Were I looking at the originals I might be able to answer better As it is we are looking at copies that have been cropped, probably had the auto correct feature applied every time, resized God knows how many times to the point where we are comparing a meerkat with a muskrat. The T9 could scarcely remember what they were doing one days end to the next so the lack of commonality in their accounts is hardly surprising.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey