Author Topic: Analysis of the timeline  (Read 25987 times)

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Offline faithlilly

Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2016, 11:22:51 AM »
I have explained why. I and others have highlighted problems with the group's timeline which are not explained. I would be grateful for cites as to what lines of inquiry the two police forces are following at the present time, because I have no idea.

The problem is neither does ferryman and Redwood's statement in 2013 was many moons and, possibly, many interesting leads ago.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2016, 12:21:38 PM »
The problem is neither does ferryman and Redwood's statement in 2013 was many moons and, possibly, many interesting leads ago.

Quite, so we need cites when people say they know what SY and the PJ are doing.
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ferryman

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Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2016, 12:26:50 PM »
I have explained why. I and others have highlighted problems with the group's timeline which are not explained. I would be grateful for cites as to what lines of inquiry the two police forces are following at the present time, because I have no idea.

What do 'problems' (with what we read on line) have to do with the time-line?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2016, 01:09:19 PM »
What do 'problems' (with what we read on line) have to do with the time-line?

No cites for what the police are doing at the moment then?

I don't know what the bolded text means?
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Offline pathfinder73

Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2016, 01:15:08 PM »
Suspicious Phone Calls Timeline

Four phone records under suspicion
Four phone records between JS and RR, made at the day of the crime, are under suspicion: the phone call made at 17:26 which coincides with the time that Maddie left the crèche; a text message at 21:25 when two members of the McCann's group went to check the children; another at 21:38, when Jane Tanner left the Tapas bar and the last at 21:51, when Kate, Madeleine's mother goes to the apartment, before alerting to the disappearance.



Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline jassi

Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2016, 01:20:22 PM »
Were they the only phone calls between the pair that evening, or have they been picked out of a larger series?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Gadfly1.3

Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2016, 01:30:12 PM »
Can someone add in the approximate times that Gerry & Kate deleted text messages they had been sending and receiving. 
--
On 12 May 2011 the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) announced that, at the request of the Home Secretary, it had agreed to bring its particular expertise to the Madeleine McCann case.

The then Commissioner, Sir Paul Stephenson, considered the request and took the decision that on balance it was the right thing to do. This was subject to funding being made available by the Home Office, as this case is beyond the MPS's jurisdiction.  The Portuguese authorities retain the lead.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2016, 01:51:13 PM »
Can someone add in the approximate times that Gerry & Kate deleted text messages they had been sending and receiving.

Sorry don't know but it was before the ffin tossin police got their hands on them -  a walk all alone at 5am  &%+((£

On May 4th, the parents authorise us to check the phone calls logged on their mobile.

– Here’s a copy of the summary of calls.

– I only have that of the couple. We have yet to receive the summary from BTS (*)

– OK, what have we got?

– Do you see what I see?

– Yes, I think so: between April 27th and May 4th, Kate did not make any calls. Hum…

– None either, between 11.22am and 11.17pm on the night of the disappearance.

– Kate mustn’t like making telephone calls…

– For Gerald, there’s nothing before May 4th at exactly 12.15am

– What does that mean? They never made phone calls then?

– Wait, there’s something here. Look at the number at the top of the list.

– Yes, so?

– On her telephone, her husbands’ number is logged: she called him on May 3rd at 11.17pm, but on Gerald’s, nothing, no trace of that call!

– How can that be explained?

– It’s simple as anything: the list of calls has been deleted.

– Always the same old question: why?

http://truthofthelie.com/the-book/chapter-3/
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Gadfly1.3

Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2016, 02:11:33 PM »
Can we also add in the exact time that Kate and Gerry went off on their own early morning search, as noted by Fiona Payne.

--
On 12 May 2011 the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) announced that, at the request of the Home Secretary, it had agreed to bring its particular expertise to the Madeleine McCann case.

The then Commissioner, Sir Paul Stephenson, considered the request and took the decision that on balance it was the right thing to do. This was subject to funding being made available by the Home Office, as this case is beyond the MPS's jurisdiction.  The Portuguese authorities retain the lead.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2016, 02:22:45 PM »
Can we also add in the exact time that Kate and Gerry went off on their own early morning search, as noted by Fiona Payne.

1485
 'Can you remember what sort of time that was roughly''
 
 Reply
 'Erm it was still very cold and, and dark, erm I think it was you know, between five and six, I say, I say, I think we'd, we'd, we'd just dozed off, so erm it was still very early.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2016, 06:57:41 PM »
1485
 'Can you remember what sort of time that was roughly''
 
 Reply
 'Erm it was still very cold and, and dark, erm I think it was you know, between five and six, I say, I say, I think we'd, we'd, we'd just dozed off, so erm it was still very early.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Emma Knight left the Payne's apartment at 4.30am. Between then and 4.55 Kate is using her phone. Both she and Gerry then fall silent until 6.04am when Kate replies to a text from her mother. She then makes one call and lots of texts between then and 7am when she and Gerry are seen by a GNR officer.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm

According to Kate Gerry nodded for a while. That quiet hour?

He managed to drift off but only briefly, certainly for less than an hour.,,,,,,As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search.
Madeleine by Kate McCann

So according to Kate it was light, not dark. Sunrise was at about 6.30am, but it becomes light earlier than that, at dawn.
http://www.timeanddate.com/sun/portugal/faro?month=5&year=2007

My guess is they went out between 6am and 7am.
Kate's mother texted her at 6.04am and Kate replies.
She then calls her cleaner/childminder/friend Amanda, speaking for 7 minutes.
Between 6.08am and 6.55am she received  5 texts from Jon Corner and one from someone else.
She replies to the unknown person and sends 3 replies to Jon.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm


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Offline G-Unit

Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2016, 10:01:37 PM »
According to DCI Redwood a forensic analysis of the timeline for the evening of 3rd May was carried out and it showed an opportunity for Madeleine to be taken btween 9.30pm and 10pm.

Heriberto Janosch has said he conducted a system analysis of the timeline which told him that it was physically impossible for the McCanns to have been involved in Madeleine's disappearance.

I have no fancy computer system, but I thought it was worth a look at the timeline. Rather than looking at individual statements I decided to take the typed timeline produced by the group as their definitive account because Russell O'Brien said;

that was a timeline that was made purely by the nine of us
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

Having had input from all those present this timeline is the best effort of all nine people.

20.35   Gerry & Kate at restaurant      
20.40   Jane Tanner at restaurant      
20.42   Matt and Rachael at restaurant      
20.45   Russell at restaurant      
20.55   Matt 1st check                                                Passes the Paynes and Dianne Webster
20.57   Matt listens      
21.00   Matt returns 1st check                                Starters ordered   
21.05   GM 1st check      
21.15   Jane sighting                                                GM & JEZ talking north of gate.   
21.20   Jane returns                                                Starters have arrived   
21.25   Matt and Russ go check      
21.30   Matt McCann apartment check      
21.35   Matt returns from  McCann apartment check        Mains have arrived   
21.40   Jane relieves Russ      
21.45   Russ returns      
21.55   Russ food served      
22.00   Kate check                                                        Searches all rooms and wardrobes then heads back   
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

We can see the 15 minute gap between 21.45 and 22.00 which Redwood identified. Previously there were only 5 minute gaps.

It takes Matt 5 minutes to do a listening check of three apartments, and it takes Jane 5 minutes to do an inside check on her children only. When Matt does his second check it takes him 10 minutes because he checks two apartments and speaks to Russell also. Gerald visited the bathroom and had a moment n the bedroom, so he was likely to have spent 5 minutes in his apartment, then 5 minutes chatting. As Kate searched the apartment, the alarm was probably raised between 5 and 10 minutes after she went to check.

There are some statements by those outside the group which either contradict their timeline or cast doubt on it.
 
Stephen Carpenter thought they were all seated at approx. 21.30pm. If he's correct it's unlikely that the starters didn't arrive until 21.20pm.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm

Maria Rosa says an English tourist arrived at the Millenium at 22.00 asking if anyone had seen a child.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_ROSA.htm

Emma Wilding says she heard about the disappearance at 22.00
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA_WILDING.htm

Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira says the whole group had gone from the table at 21.45
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm

Barend Jan Jacob Weijdom says he heard the news before 22.00
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BAREND_WEIJDOM.htm

One of the reasons to distrust the timeline is not that people disagreed with each other, they disagreed with themselves too. Thsi suggests they changed their story due to discussions with each other. Despite that, they were very bad at it.

it says above that Matt passed the Paynes and Dianne Webster during his first check. In her 4th May statement Dianne says they left for the restaurant at 20.45, ten minutes before Matt went to check. 

The communal timeline above was then produced by all of them before their interviews on 11th May.

Dianne now modifies her statement to say they arrived at 21.00. She forgets about seeing Matt, though;

Asked if there was the possibility of having crossed paths with someone during the journey between her apartment and restaurant, the witness said no.....The witness did not recall, but thinks that perhaps Gerald and MATT had not been in the restaurant along with the other members of the group.
- In this regard, asked specifically whether, on the journey to the restaurant, if they had passed either of the two individuals described in the preceding paragraph, she answered categorically not.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm

So that's a no and a definitely not. Very clear. But then, a year later, her memory for the arrival time has again moved to before nine o'clock, but despite arriving before or at the same time as Matt left, she has now managed to recall seeing him 'coming up'. As you will have noticed, she hadn't just neglected to mention seeing Matt, she had strongly denied seeing him;

 ”Well we arrived about, I don’t know, ten to nine, five to nine, which was very late. Err and the thing that I didn’t mention at the original err interview in Portugal was that I do vaguely remember seeing Matt, he was coming up because I think he made some joke about coming up to see where we were because we were so late, but he was actually on his way to check err check the children.”
 
 4078    ”Right.”
 Reply    ”Err so I do, I do remember that although I didn’t remember it clearly at the time err so we got down to the table err I think we ordered our starters.”
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm

An impressive witness.

They arrived at 20.45 or 21.00 or 21.50 or 21.55.

She couldn't have passed Russell if she arrived before or at 21.55 as that's when he left.

When her memory is freshest she denies completely seeing Matt, but somehow the memory surfaces a year later.
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Offline mercury

Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2016, 12:41:46 AM »
Excellent analysis there

  8@??)(


Offline pegasus

Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2016, 04:05:26 AM »
What about "the child gate on the stairs up to the patio is possibly open" and also  "hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot"?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 04:08:48 AM by pegasus »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Analysis of the timeline
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2016, 11:57:54 AM »
Through the gate, through the patio doors, erm, there was, it was light enough to see through the apartment.

4078 'Is there anything else, that you smelt, could you smell anything''

Reply 'No, no, we've talked about that before, I didn't smell anything, I mean, I could see the children breathing, but I didn't clock it as abnormal, erm, it'd be completely to speculate to say whether their breathing was fast or, I couldn't say, I mean, they were breathing and that's what, you know, and that was what I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh'.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.