The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.

[sadie]

Gerry didn't mention searching the pool area and the waiter who served the steak said it was David Payne and Matt Oldfield searching the tapas/pool area. This independent witness is most important because he was definitely in the right time and place to see what was happening shortly after serving Russell his steak.

He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group? David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner.
David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm

As far as I am aware no-body exactly specified where they searched, so nothing unusual about Gerry not mentioning it.. 

Seems Diane Webster saw him searching the Tapas area (?and Jeronimo).

[sadie]

Why do you think the waiter is a better judge of who Dianne Webster saw than Dianne Webster herself?  I await your answer with interest (though I doubt I'll get one that makes any sense).

Different waiters and different times, Alfie.

Bet they all searched the Tapas area at one time or another.

[sadie]

That waiter thought it was 10:20/30 when the alarm was raised. Nobody knows where Madeleine was after Gerry's check on her. Matt didn't see her nor Kate so 45 minutes later she could be somewhere else.

Same barman.   Two statements, two widely different times


TAPAS BARMAN
 
233 to 238 Witness statement of Jeronimo Tomas Rodrigues Salcedas 2007.05.06


-snip-

Referring to the day of 3rd May when Madeleine disappeared, the witness says that he was working.

At that time, at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone.


-snip-



22 to 24 Witness statement of Jeronimo Tomas Rodigues Salcedo (former Ocean Club worker) 2008.04.23

-snip-

On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues?Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: ?They've left you alone?? She responded more of less with these words: ?No, they went to see if the little girl was there.? I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.

-snip-

OK, Pfinder.

Is this what you base your groundless 10.03 on in your signature?  Cos you need to rethink things a bit it seems.

Jeronimo is the independant witness that saw Gerry searching in the Tapas area.

Elsewhere in his statement he comments that with the exception of one night, the group did not have any extra drinks after the meal.  That they drank in moderation.

He also states that some of them normally left at 11pm. 
We don't know which ones stayed, but my bet is that probably the women generally went home leaving (some of) the men. 

But I hasten to add that is only based upon my (considerable) experience of what often happens with such groups.

[Alfie]

Dianne Webster said she didn't know the time when Kate raised the alarm because she didn't check her watch. She also said she tried raising the shutters but she couldn't do it. She didn't see them raised or an open window.

Dianne Webster said she saw Gerry by the pool when she was sat there alone after the alarm was raised, you claimed the only people seen by the pool were Matt and David, as claimed by one of the waiters.  I asked you why Dianne Webster couldn't be a better judge of who she saw than the waiter.

"Gerry didn't mention searching the pool area and the waiter who served the steak said it was David Payne and Matt Oldfield searching the tapas/pool area. This independent witness is most important because he was definitely in the right time and place to see what was happening shortly after serving Russell his steak." -this is what you wrote, in reply to my post that Dianne saw Gerry by the pool.  Why is Dianne's statement about who she saw by the pool not as valid as one of the waiters? 

[slartibartfast]

Dianne Webster said she saw Gerry by the pool when she was sat there alone after the alarm was raised, you claimed the only people seen by the pool were Matt and David, as claimed by one of the waiters.  I asked you why Dianne Webster couldn't be a better judge of who she saw than the waiter. 

PF's post was factual, yours wasn't and had no indications that it was a joke. If you have issues with it, take it offline.

[G-Unit]

Dianne Webster said she saw Gerry by the pool when she was sat there alone after the alarm was raised, you claimed the only people seen by the pool were Matt and David, as claimed by one of the waiters.  I asked you why Dianne Webster couldn't be a better judge of who she saw than the waiter. 

"Gerry didn't mention searching the pool area and the waiter who served the steak said it was David Payne and Matt Oldfield searching the tapas/pool area. This independent witness is most important because he was definitely in the right time and place to see what was happening shortly after serving Russell his steak." -this is what you wrote, in reply to my post that Dianne saw Gerry by the pool.  Why is Dianne's statement about who she saw by the pool not as valid as one of the waiters?

I don't recall Diane Webster saying she saw Gerry McCann searching by the pool. Do you have a cite please?

[Lace]

That waiter thought it was 10:20/30 when the alarm was raised. Nobody knows where Madeleine was after Gerry's check on her. Matt didn't see her nor Kate so 45 minutes later she could be somewhere else.

Gerry was there to order dinner,  the waiter said that everyone had finished their dinner apart from one which still had a piece of steak on the plate.   So Gerry was at the table after he came back from his check.   Dianne Webster also said that Kate said 'she's gone Gerry'   when she raised the alarm which proves Gerry was at the table.

This waiter said he was asked to hold a plate of food back,  that was the steak then he served it about quarter to 10-   When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45.

[G-Unit]

Gerry was there to order dinner,  the waiter said that everyone had finished their dinner apart from one which still had a piece of steak on the plate.   So Gerry was at the table after he came back from his check.   Dianne Webster also said that Kate said 'she's gone Gerry'   when she raised the alarm which proves Gerry was at the table.

This waiter said he was asked to hold a plate of food back,  that was the steak then he served it about quarter to 10-   When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45.

I haven't seen the statement from Dianne Webster saying what Kate said. Any chence of a cite please?

[pathfinder73]

No he didn't.  You are misquoting.

He says:

TAPAS BARMAN
 
233 to 238 Witness statement of Jeronimo Tomas Rodrigues Salcedas 2007.05.06


-snip-
Referring to the day of 3rd May when Madeleine disappeared, the witness says that he was working.

At that time, at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone.
-snip-


He was the barman .  That meant that he spent most of his time in the tapas bar rather than the restaurant.

The tapas Bar and the tapas Restaurant are two seperate rooms.

He says:

"at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone."

Please DO NOT obfuscate.  Do NOT start myths.  Jeronimo does NOT say that the time above was when the alarm was raised.

Read what he said again Pfinder

Get your facts right Sadie. 5 minutes alone at the table according to her not 30 minutes.

"In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm

[pathfinder73]

Dianne saw no open window or shutters raised (she tried to raise them fully but could not do it) so any crime scene had already changed before she got there. Whether deliberate or not is for the investigators to conclude.

[Lace]

I haven't seen the statement from Dianne Webster saying what Kate said. Any chence of a cite please?

From Dianne Webster's statement  -

"One of them would stay, or stayed in the apartment while the other one gobbled down their meal and then, so I think Russell, Russell must have gone back and let Jane come and eat her meal because by that time err we’d, we’d ordered our main courses and err Russell had ordered steak and of course he wasn’t at the table when it was ready and he said oh you know (inaudible) to go back, he’ll be back later, once Jane finishes hers err just keep his steak warm err so Jane sort of gobbled down her, her meal and went, went back so that Russell could come and have his dinner and, and this must have been getting on for, I don’t know, maybe ten to ten or something like that. Again I wasn’t looking at the time but just thinking to what happened is that err Russell came back to table and err they’d actually cooked him a fresh steak and he was just starting to tuck into it when err Kate had obviously gone back to check on the children, came running in you know, as far as I can recollect she said you know she’s gone, Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, screaming you know.”

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm

[pathfinder73]

Gerry was there to order dinner,  the waiter said that everyone had finished their dinner apart from one which still had a piece of steak on the plate.   So Gerry was at the table after he came back from his check.   Dianne Webster also said that Kate said 'she's gone Gerry'   when she raised the alarm which proves Gerry was at the table.

This waiter said he was asked to hold a plate of food back,  that was the steak then he served it about quarter to 10-   When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45.

I know Gerry was there when the alarm was raised but that was before 10 not after IMO.

[pathfinder73]

From Dianne Webster's statement  -

"One of them would stay, or stayed in the apartment while the other one gobbled down their meal and then, so I think Russell, Russell must have gone back and let Jane come and eat her meal because by that time err we’d, we’d ordered our main courses and err Russell had ordered steak and of course he wasn’t at the table when it was ready and he said oh you know (inaudible) to go back, he’ll be back later, once Jane finishes hers err just keep his steak warm err so Jane sort of gobbled down her, her meal and went, went back so that Russell could come and have his dinner and, and this must have been getting on for, I don’t know, maybe ten to ten or something like that. Again I wasn’t looking at the time but just thinking to what happened is that err Russell came back to table and err they’d actually cooked him a fresh steak and he was just starting to tuck into it when err Kate had obviously gone back to check on the children, came running in you know, as far as I can recollect she said you know she’s gone, Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, screaming you know.”

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm

What has that got to do with Dianne allegedly witnessing Gerry searching by the pool after the alarm was raised? I know Gerry was at the table when the alarm was raised. Please cite it or Alfie?

[Benice]

I haven't seen the statement from Dianne Webster saying what Kate said. Any chence of a cite please?

Diane Webster was interviewed the 11th April 2008 at Leicestershire Constabulary force headquarters in Enderby by the DC 4078 Ferguson.

Relevant extract

4078    ”Yeah.”
 Reply    ”One of them would stay, or stayed in the apartment while the other one gobbled down their meal and then, so I think Russell, Russell must have gone back and let Jane come and eat her meal because by that time err we’d, we’d ordered our main courses and err Russell had ordered steak and of course he wasn’t at the table when it was ready and he said oh you know (inaudible) to go back, he’ll be back later, once Jane finishes hers err just keep his steak warm err so Jane sort of gobbled down her, her meal and went, went back so that Russell could come and have his dinner and, and this must have been getting on for, I don’t know, maybe ten to ten or something like that. Again I wasn’t looking at the time but just thinking to what happened is that err Russell came back to table and err they’d actually cooked him a fresh steak and he was just starting to tuck into it when err Kate had obviously gone back to check on the children, came running in you know, as far as I can recollect she said you know she’s gone, Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, screaming you know.”
 
 4078    ”How did she look?”
 Reply    ”Well I don’t know, frightened or absolutely, well, it’s very difficult to take in when something like that, you know, you’re just sitting at a table having what was a nice meal and err everybody just, you know, stopped what they were doing and just got up and Fiona said to me you know, I said what do you want me to do and she said you stay there in case err you know if Madeleine, because at that time we didn’t know what had happened because I think Gerry had sort of said to Kate oh she can’t be, you know.

end quote
 

[faithlilly]

Gerry, by his own estimation, pinpointed Kate's alarm around 10.13pm.

"Half and hour later without anything to signal, it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house."

Add to this the eyewitness account of Svetlana Vitorino....

"
-------  STARIKOVA VITORINO (Russian citizen, with the telephone No "96635 ####) - kitchen assistant:
- Said that, yesterday, one individual, purportedly the father of the missing, left the dinner table where a group of friends (in number 8 or 9), for about 30 minutes. After having returned, a woman whom she believed to be his wife, also left the table, there having passed a few moments, all the guests left the table in question, except one elderly lady, who told her [Svetlana's] colleagues that that child had disappeared.


And an argument can certainly be made for the first scenario you suggest ie an alert around 10.15.