The PJ's Analysis states Kate discovered Madeleine gone at 10pm.

[pathfinder73]

You are completely missing the point.    How could Gerry know beforehand that for instance a couple of waiters were not going to be at their table just as Kate came running back - who could immediately ring the police.    How could he know beforehand that a police car was not a mere 5 mins drive away?

You say the bar staff didn't know what was happening but how could Gerry know beforehand that that was going to be the case?

You theory requires Gerry to be able to see into the future at the time he was devising his 'cunning' plan.

Surely you can see the flaw in that?

I'm not missing no point. No way would police be in Luz within minutes especially when the parents didn't call them.

[sadie]

Get your facts right Sadie. 5 minutes alone at the table according to her not 30 minutes.

"In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm

You are changing it Pfinder

You claimed that the waiter Jeronimo stated that the time of 22.20-22.30 was when the alarm was raised.  He did NOT.

He merely says that
 "at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone."

Nowhere can I find where he says that the alarm was raised at 22.20-22.30

You are not trying to artificially adjust times to fit your (very dicey) theory, are you?


Please would you amend your posts ... You wouldn't want to start yet another myth, would you?

[Alice Purjorick]

I think Jez was genuine in what he reported and had no way of recalling the time.  Fortunately interpolating between other statements we can establish the Gerry/Jez/Jane encounter at about 9.15pm.

I would agree that for "roughing in" for the purpose of debate we could say approx. 21:15.
The judiciary may be a little more picky about interpolating times from witness statements if the witnesses are loosely of the same affiliation. Or putting it another way are there sufficient independent witness statements to hold sway?

[pathfinder73]

You are changing it Pfinder...

You claimed that the waiter Jeronimo stated that the time of 22.20-22.30 was when the alarm was raised.  He did NOT.

He merely says that
 "at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone."

Nowhere can I find where he says that the alarm was raised at 22.20-22.30

You are not trying to artificially adjust times to fit your (very dicey) theory, are you?


Please would you amend your posts ... You wouldn't want to start yet another myth, would you?

After the alarm was raised Dianne was only at the table for 5 minutes. So if she was there at 22:20-22:30 the alarm according to that witness was 10:15 at the earliest. The only myth is these times you quote because we have other documented ones to prove that ain't the truth.

Emma Knight received a call earlier at 10:17 after a woman had travelled to the creche and had heard them out searching for Madeleine. So that puts the alarm being raised well before 10:15.

"22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm

[Benice]

I'm not missing no point. No way would police be in Luz within minutes especially when the parents didn't call them.

Perhaps you can explain to me how Gerry knew in advance that no-one was going to call the police as soon as Kate raised the alarm and how he also knew in advance that it wasn't possible for a police car to be in the vicinity.

[Lace]

After the alarm was raised Dianne was only at the table for 5 minutes. So if she was there at 22:20-22:30 the alarm according to that witness was 10:15 at the earliest. The only myth is these times you quote because we have other documented ones to prove that ain't the truth.

Emma Knight received a call earlier at 10:17 after a woman had travelled to the creche and had heard them out searching for Madeleine. So that puts the alarm being raised well before 10:15.

"22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm

Can you please tell me when in your opinion Gerry is supposed to have carried Madeleine to pass the Smith's at 10o'clock ish?

[pathfinder73]

Perhaps you can explain to me how Gerry knew in advance that no-one was going to call the police as soon as Kate raised the alarm and how he also knew in advance that it wasn't possible for a police car to be in the vicinity.

I care about the facts. No police were there so it doesn't change anything. Fact is nobody called the police straight away.

[pathfinder73]

Benice: How many crimes do you think there would be if perps thought police were there? Nobody can see into the future and know if a police car is going to pull up outside where a crime is taking place. I follow facts not what If's. What if the McCanns never left their children alone? I'm not interested what if they didn't, the fact is they did and Madeleine disappeared!

[Benice]

Benice: How many crimes do you think there would be if perps thought police were there? Nobody can see into the future and know if a police car is going to pull up outside where a crime is taking place.   I follow facts not what If's. What if the McCanns never left their children alone? I'm not interested what if they didn't, the fact is they did and Madeleine disappeared!

The facts are that Gerry could not see into the future and so had no way of knowing that no-one  was going to call the police once Kate raised the alarm -  and also had no way of knowing how long it would be before the police arrived.   

Therefore he had no way of knowing how long he'd got before they did arrive.

[stephen25000]

The facts are that Gerry could not see into the future and so had no way of knowing that no-one  was going to call the police once Kate raised the alarm -  and also had no way of knowing how long it would be before the police arrived.   

Therefore he had no way of knowing how long he'd got before they did arrive.

The actual facts are, you don't know what Gerry McCann was thinking or doing.

[pathfinder73]

The facts are that Gerry could not see into the future and so had no way of knowing that no-one  was going to call the police once Kate raised the alarm -  and also had no way of knowing how long it would be before the police arrived.   

Therefore he had no way of knowing how long he'd got before they did arrive.

Did that happen? Fact is no police were there when the alarm was raised so it has no relevance to this case. Thanks.

[Alfie]

I started this thread to point out that as far as the investigating forces are concerned Kate discovered Madeleine missing at 10pm and that therefore Gerry could not have been anywhere else at the time.  You stated you know Gerry was at the table when the alarm was raised but have failed to tell us how you know this.

[G-Unit]

How strange that some people scorn the investigation by the 'bumbling' PJ, but think they did a wonderful job on the timeline when the evidence suggests they never confirmed it at all.

The initial coordinator didn't attempt to confirm it and the second coordinator was prevented from doing so. Quite why the analysis presents 10pm as the time Kate discovered Madeleine gone isn't clear.

Although the entire group was at the table and starting the meal, they began the 'visits' to the children in a way that is neither coherent nor acceptable; that could not be confirmed and only the group defends it, in a sort of 'unique version'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

The establishing of a timeline and of the effective checking of the minors that were left alone inside the apartments, given the fact that, believing that said checking was as tight as the witnesses and the arguidos describe it, it would be, to say the least, very difficult that the conditions were reunited for the introduction of an abductor in the residence and the posterior exit of said individual,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm

[Alfie]

How strange that some people scorn the investigation by the 'bumbling' PJ, but think they did a wonderful job on the timeline when the evidence suggests they never confirmed it at all.

The initial coordinator didn't attempt to confirm it and the second coordinator was prevented from doing so. Quite why the analysis presents 10pm as the time Kate discovered Madeleine gone isn't clear.

Although the entire group was at the table and starting the meal, they began the 'visits' to the children in a way that is neither coherent nor acceptable; that could not be confirmed and only the group defends it, in a sort of 'unique version'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

The establishing of a timeline and of the effective checking of the minors that were left alone inside the apartments, given the fact that, believing that said checking was as tight as the witnesses and the arguidos describe it, it would be, to say the least, very difficult that the conditions were reunited for the introduction of an abductor in the residence and the posterior exit of said individual,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm

The initial co-ordinator made it quite clear in an interview that he knew Gerry couldn't also be Smithman - I think the word he used was impossible, though of course he then went on to mischievously leave the door open for further speculation on this matter.  Neither of your quotes above are particularly relevant to the establishing of the time the alarm was raised as this was decided taking into account not just the McCann group's own timeline.  See opening post for a reminder of how the PJ, with help from British counterparts, arrived at this conclusion.

[G-Unit]

The initial co-ordinator made it quite clear in an interview that he knew Gerry couldn't also be Smithman - I think the word he used was impossible, though of course he then went on to mischievously leave the door open for further speculation on this matter.  Neither of your quotes above are particularly relevant to the establishing of the time the alarm was raised as this was decided taking into account not just the McCann group's own timeline.  See opening post for a reminder of how the PJ, with help from British counterparts, arrived at this conclusion.

As it's a summary of a 14 page report it's not possible to offer an opinion as to why they discounted the statements which contradicted the time of 10pm. It is possible to identify at least one mistake in their work, however;

On 3rd May at about 18.00 (when she left the Kids club) until 22.00 when her mother gave the alert, nobody apart from the parents, Kate and Gerry, saw Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm