A Body-farm in England?

[Alice Purjorick]

Teaching old drug dogs new tricks

"Sgt. Sean Whitcomb said the Seattle Police Department is already taking steps to desensitize its dogs to marijuana through rewards and constant training.
"Got to keep those sniffers in shape," Whitcomb said".


http://komonews.com/news/local/legal-pot-means-big-changes-for-states-drug-sniffing-dogs-11-22-2015

[pathfinder73]

Cadaver dogs alert to blood and pig cadavers. You have proven you haven't got a clue about cadaver dogs and should stop spreading your myths. If you have evidence of a dead pig then provide it.

"Training a cadaver dog requires regular contact with human blood, decaying flesh and bones."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/magazine/how-to-train-a-cadaver-dog.html?_r=0

In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States.
These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption).
The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

[Lace]

So ?

Was any pig residue detected ?

Yes or No ?

We will never know.

[ferryman]

Being trained according to acpo guidelines does not exclude havng extra training....so....are you accusing grime of LYING? a smple yeah or ney will do

The second FOI answer I received does not say that a record of this alleged training was received and lost.

It says a report (sic) was not received.

Do you seriously think SYP would have no record of this training?

Even if Grime decided to keep the copy handed to him on completion (assuming it ever happened) a second copy could easily have been faxed to SYP who, as Grime's employer, would assuredly want a record of the training for their own purposes.

[ferryman]

But no such facility exists in Europe and scientists would need to secure a change in the law before one could be opened in the UK.


It implies that methods used on US body-farms are illegal in England.

Would we (in England) send a dog to be trained in ways outlawed as illegal here?

I suggest not.

[jassi]

Why not?  It sounds as if it's not the training that's illegal, but the establishment of a body farm.

[ferryman]

One concern I do have about this body-farm in England, and one thing I would hate to see, is 'competition' between body parts that could be used for medical purposes to save, or improve, lives and body-parts shipped off to a body-farm to train dogs.

I see the medical imperatives (of using human body parts) as having, or at least deserving, a higher priority than training dogs.

[ferryman]

Why not?  It sounds as if it's not the training that's illegal, but the establishment of a body farm.

Yes.

Training that's currently illegal in England (hence proscribed by law) would not have sanction in the form of training the same way in another country.

[John]

But no such facility exists in Europe and scientists would need to secure a change in the law before one could be opened in the UK.


It implies that methods used on US body-farms are illegal in England.

Would we (in England) send a dog to be trained in ways outlawed as illegal here?

I suggest not.

I see no difficulty.  Just because body farms are currently not legal in the UK does not prohibit police or anyone else from sending their dogs to other countries where they are licensed and legal.

It's like so many things in the UK, the Law has not kept pace with modern science. As far as a body farm is concerned the powers that be have probably shied away from the issue for fear of invoking a negative response from the general public. Dogs can be trained by other methods, granted not as efficiently, but it seems to be adequate for police purposes in this part of the world.  If advanced training is required they can always fly off to other destinations.

[Brietta]

We should be discussing ...  A Body-farm in England?

I don't know what the advantages are of having a body farm where dogs are trained solely on human cadavers.  I've read a few articles about American facilities and still can't work out what the specific advantages are.

VOCs appear to be much the same in pigs and humans ... and the dog doesn't differentiate one from the other and goes for that combination as opposed to whether or not it is pig or human.

Vol IX p. 2478
CADAVER AND HUMAN BLOOD DETECTING DOGS SEARCH ASSET PROFILES

In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of
human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.
Martin Grime

With the presumption that Martin Grime carried out the experiment in reverse ensuring that a British trained dog also alerted to human scent (and I think we know that to be the case) ... what exactly is the advantage of a British body farm?

[Eleanor]

Where would they put a Body Farm in Britain?  The smell would be awful.

[Alfie]

Where would they put a Body Farm in Britain?  The smell would be awful.

Next to a wind farm, with the turbines pointing towards Rothley*. 

*NB - that was a joke, not a serious suggestion.

[Brietta]

Where would they put a Body Farm in Britain?  The smell would be awful.

Having learned much of what I know about forensic techniques from the same source most other 'experts' consult ... I think there is a huge advantage to be gained from studying how bodies decompose in particular circumstances and which insects are the agents of the clear up and when particular species are attracted to remains.

FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGY OR THE USE OF INSECTS IN DEATH INVESTIGATIONS
http://www.sfu.museum/forensics/eng/pg_media-media_pg/entomologie-entomology/

None of which is necessary for a dog to know.  The dogs' locus being in establishing where the body is leading to its recovery.  It uses it's nose for that and if pig smells like human and vice versa I wonder why we need a body farm.

Forensic scientists are already conversant with these techniques for establishing time of death etc as anyone who has had a cursory glance at a heaving mass of maggots in a laboratory tank can work out, whether school, college or university.

Is there anything extra to be gained from a body farm?  I really don't know as no-one seems to be making a case for or against.

[Eleanor]

Having learned much of what I know about forensic techniques from the same source most other 'experts' consult ... I think there is a huge advantage to be gained from studying how bodies decompose in particular circumstances and which insects are the agents of the clear up and when particular species are attracted to remains.

FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGY OR THE USE OF INSECTS IN DEATH INVESTIGATIONS
http://www.sfu.museum/forensics/eng/pg_media-media_pg/entomologie-entomology/

None of which is necessary for a dog to know.  The dogs' locus being in establishing where the body is leading to its recovery.  It uses it's nose for that and if pig smells like human and vice versa I wonder why we need a body farm.

Forensic scientists are already conversant with these techniques for establishing time of death etc as anyone who has had a cursory glance at a heaving mass of maggots in a laboratory tank can work out, whether school, college or university.

Is there anything extra to be gained from a body farm?  I really don't know as no-one seems to be making a case for or against.

All dogs can find a body if there is one. Even my half arsed, blind Pug, which is why most dead bodies are found by passing dog walkers.

As for the rest, an American Cadaver Dog Handler in the Casey Anthony Trial said in Court that a Cadaver Dog will alert to the next best decomposing body fluid if there is no Cadaver or Cadaver Scent.
Presumably her dog was trained at The Body Farm.

So no real point to a Body Farm in UK as other aspects of time span and maggots, etcetera, can be done under other circumstances.

[Angelo222]

Next to a wind farm, with the turbines pointing towards Rothley*. 

*NB - that was a joke, not a serious suggestion.

I'm surprised at you Alf to even consider such a thing.