Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent

[Holly Goodhead]

1. Well why not phone Jeremy? He is the immediate family member nearby, with a full command of the evening's build up, and so far nothing has happened except Sheila has a gun in hand. She has never shot anyone, no one in the family or whole community has. There is no real reason to expect her to use it, let us be realistic without the benefit of hind sight.

2. SC's found state is just fine if she only shot people with a long gun, and we do not know what she did to clean her hands after the killings. It also seems she was downstairs because her period started, her underwear is in the bucket after June went to bed, and she is found with san prod in place. The underwear will only be bloody before the tampon remember. So we can deduce she went downstairs after going to bed, and probably just before 3 am, waking Nevill.

3. Trial judge said JM testimony was not to be relied on, check. Holly?

1.  Yes

2.  SC's hands were not forensically examined the way they should have been to check for contaminants but visual inspections state they were free of bloodstaining.

I don't think it is necessary to speculate about why SC and NB were downstairs when the physical evidence by way of bloodstaining to carpets and/or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks show the perp was in the main bedroom shooting June and NB was shot on the landing and main stairs when he sustained his gsw's to his face, shoulder and elbow.  This in itself lends support to JB's claim that NB made the call to JB from the kitchen.

3.  According to the vid I uploaded and commentary from solicitor Ewan Smith (is it Ewan or Ewen?) yes the trial judge said JM's testimony alone was not enough to convict or words to this effect.  Have you listened to the vid Samson?  If you require assistance with any IT issues David1819 is your boy man.  He has his uses. 

[Holly Goodhead]

There are 40 reasons why Bamber would not call Nevill. Already posted on here -

1: Jeremy may not answer. Regardless of whether he heard the phone ringing or not.

2:Neville may not have time. Sheila was going crazy. There were five people inside WHF who were the priority.

3:He may not answer for a long time as was 'sleeping like a log'.

4: Neville may only get the answering machine.

5: Neville will assume the answering machine is switched on. Making it impossible for Jeremy to answer the phone within 3 - 8 rings as he was 'sleeping like a log'.

6: Jeremy did not like Sheila or understand her illness.  So would just make things worse when trying to talk her down.

7: Sheila did not like Jeremy.

8: Another adult, June was available at WHF.

9: The rifle was not powerful, being used for vermin. Neville would know this. So Neville would tackle Sheila prior to shots being fired.

10: Sheila had 'limited'/ no experience with guns. So Neville would tackle Sheila prior to shots being fired.

11: Neville could restrain Sheila easily. If fully or even partially fit.

12: Neville and June together could restrain Sheila easily. If fully or even partially fit.

13: Jeremy was three miles away and not dressed. 

14: The police had been called by Neville ten minutes earlier.

15: Neville would be putting his only son in danger.

16: Jeremy may be scared to go over. He told Liz Rimmington that Sheila was going 'back to the nut house' and told the police she had committed child abuse. Now Neville had told him she had 'gone crazy' with a gun.

17: Jeremy did not have a key to WHF so would have to smash the door down, or smash a window. Or shout through the letter box. Making Sheila more excitable.  Neville may not have been aware that Jeremy could get in through windows.

18: Sheila would not be pleased to see him.

19: Jeremy would be reluctant to rush over if answering the phone. Having poor relations with all the family.

20: Jeremy may refuse to go over. Being tired and upset at being woken.Lookout said it was common for Sheila to have 'one of her turns' so he may have decided to go back to bed.

21: Jeremy may not rush over. Maybe wasting up to 26 minutes doing strange things.

22: Jeremy may just ring nearby farm workers and tell them to go over. Something Neville could do himself and may consider a better option.

23: Jeremy may just ring the Foakes's and tell them to go over. Something Neville could do and may consider a better option. 

24: Neville calling someone would antagonise Sheila. She may even brutally beat someone.

25: Neville could call the Foakes's. Who were two adults living at WHF.

26: There was no time to make any calls if Sheila had 'gone' crazy with a gun. 

27: When there was time to make a call Neville had the option of restraining Sheila. Getting June to assist.

28: There was no time to wait for someone to arrive. Sheila had 'gone 'crazy'.

28: Relations between the two were poor and getting worse.   After Jeremy robbed the caravan site and spent the money.

30: Neville would be prepared to take a torso bullet in order to restrain Sheila. Knowing the gun was for shooting vermin/rabbits and a torso shot would not kill him.

31: The kitchen phone was downstairs. Meaning everyone would be left upstairs. Unless Sheila had accompanied him downstairs.

32: If the answering machine was switched off, as his supporters claim. Jeremy would not hear his downstairs phone. If his bedroom door was shut.

33: Neville was bigger and stronger than Jeremy and the head of the family.

34: Sheila would have to let Neville open the door when Jeremy arrives. Or Neville would have to put himself in danger by getting to the front door against Sheila's wishes.

35: Sheila is more likely to fire bullets if more people start pressurising her and arriving on the scene.

36: Neville would be aware that he was the person who always had most success in calming down an excited Sheila. If he couldn't, then someone who thought Sheila was a 'looney' certainly could not.

37: Jeremy was not known to be especially brave. So may refuse to go anywhere near the inside of WHF. Preferring to stay 50 yards from the entrance.  This is what happened.

38: Neville would be implicating his son if there were any injuries or fatalities. As Jeremy would be first on the scene and first witness. This is what happened.

39: Jeremy was not known for being especially brave. So may have just phoned the police. Neville had either already done this. Or wanted to keep things private. Jeremy did in fact call the police.

40: It is not standard practice to call relations on the phone at 3am when you're life is in danger. There are no other examples of this happe

The physical evidence at soc by way of bloodstaining to carpets and/or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks shows NB sustained his gsw's to his face, shoulder and elbow on the landing and stairs which in turn supports JB's claim that NB made the tel call from the kitchen phone.

[adam]

I rather think it is more a case of how effective "The treacherous Stan Jones" was in convincing JM that a) JB was responsible and b) how much trouble she would be in if she didn't play ball.  Just my opinion of course.

What did the police manual say about 21 year old females being interviewed over serious crimes by a middle-aged male police officer over days on end, isolated from others including her parents, and without access to legal representation?

Yes, the 'treacherous' Stan Jones has been accused of fabricating the silencer evidence, writing Julie's WS & coaching Julie on court performance.

There is no evidence of any of this, but if true there is no reason why he wouldn't have also threatened Julie & persuaded her Bamber was guilty.

Julie of course approached the police in the first instance knowing Bamber was innocent but wanted to single handedly frame him. Being so devastated that he apparently jilted her. Ignoring my 26 disadvantages of attempting this. 

The only reason given why Stan Jones suddenly became so corrupt has been from Lookout. Who said the relatives put the police under pressure. Although I'm sure SJ had experienced more pressure in his career. David suggested Stan Jones may have been corrupt before, although had no evidence of this. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Yes, the 'treacherous' Stan Jones has been accused of fabricating the silencer evidence, writing Julie's WS & coaching Julie on court performance.

There is no evidence of any of this, but if true there is no reason why he wouldn't have also threatened Julie & persuaded her Bamber was guilty.

Julie of course approached the police in the first instance knowing Bamber was innocent but wanted to single handedly frame him. Being so devastated that he apparently jilted her. Ignoring my 26 disadvantages of attempting this. 

The only reason given why Stan Jones suddenly became so corrupt has been from Lookout. Who said the relatives put the police under pressure. David suggested Stan Jones may have been corrupt before, although had no evidence of this.

Well imo based on his contribution to the 'Killing Mum and Dad' vid he doesn't seem like the brightest cookie in the tin.  All he offered up was personal opinions and subjective stuff about JB's behaviour.  Nothing to support his arguments by way of forensics.   I doubt he had much experience of mass shootings and may well have thought JB was in fact guilty.  In this regard I blame Chief Sup Harris for poor management controls and lack of oversight:  allowing DS Jones to drink whilst on duty, collecting the silencer and retaining it overnight before handing it in to the station the following day; when he did hand it in he entered it into the wrong property book so that it wouldn't undergo the sort of scrutiny such an exhibit would normally undergo; carrying out most, if not all, JM's interviews. 

What does the police manual for 1985 say about all of this?   

[adam]

Well imo based on his contribution to the 'Killing Mum and Dad' vid he doesn't seem like the brightest cookie in the tin.  All he offered up was personal opinions and subjective stuff about JB's behaviour.  Nothing to support his arguments by way of forensics.   I doubt he had much experience of mass shootings and may well have thought JB was in fact guilty.  In this regard I blame Chief Sup Harris for poor management controls and lack of oversight:  allowing DS Jones to drink whilst on duty, collecting the silencer and retaining it overnight before handing it in to the station the following day; when he did hand it in he entered it into the wrong property book so that it wouldn't undergo the sort of scrutiny such an exhibit would normally undergo; carrying out most, if not all, JM's interviews. 

What does the police manual for 1985 say about all of this?   

It seems Bamber was unlucky all round.

Julie approached the police to single handedly frame an innocent Bamber. Because he apparently jilted her.

The one organisation you would expect to stop Julie straight away would be the police. After all the evidence they had must have showed Bamber was innocent. But no, SJ jumped on board with Julie.  Why ? The greedy relatives had pressurised him beforehand.

[Myster]

1. Well why not phone Jeremy? He is the immediate family member nearby, with a full command of the evening's build up, and so far nothing has happened except Sheila has a gun in hand. She has never shot anyone, no one in the family or whole community has. There is no real reason to expect her to use it, let us be realistic without the benefit of hind sight.

2. SC's found state is just fine if she only shot people with a long gun, and we do not know what she did to clean her hands after the killings. It also seems she was downstairs because her period started, her underwear is in the bucket after June went to bed, and she is found with san prod in place. The underwear will only be bloody before the tampon remember. So we can deduce she went downstairs after going to bed, and probably just before 3 am, waking Nevill.

3. Trial judge said JM testimony was not to be relied on, check. Holly?

1). Why call his son who was four miles away, so not nearby, then wait 15 plus minutes for him to arrive?. "Sheila had gone crazy"... remember?, and she needed disarming asap. You're under the illusion that Nevill was some weedy whimp who desperately needed assistance to subdue his frail daughter, and so wasted precious time on the phone, when there is no record of his son ever having helped pacify her before.  They lived separate lives and hated each other's guts - " We don't get on... I don't like her and she doesn't like me" and "She's used all the weapons in the house before" - waiting police were told. But that was a false flag to scare the $hit out of them and make Sheila out to be armed and dangerous, a latter day Bonnie Parker, when nothing could be further from the truth. Nevill was a tough, strong farmer, a wartime fighter/bomber pilot, a lifelong weapon-user who knew the damage they could do, and who towered over his daughter by a good 9"... yet you say he allowed her to slip past him with a fully-loaded rifle to take potshots at his wife and grandsons!?  What did he think they were?... fairground ducks?

2). His mouth was severely damaged so he must have been spitting out plenty blood, and any attempt to beat him on the face and arms with the butt and barrel whilst close up, as there most definitely was, would inevitably result in blood being spattered onto her face, arms, hands and clothing. Yet there was not a trace on Sheila when she should have been covered in it, so she'd need to do more than wash her hands after such a confrontation.

3). Ten out of twelve thought otherwise.

[adam]

1). Why call his son who was four miles away, so not nearby, then wait 15 plus minutes for him to arrive?. "Sheila had gone crazy"... remember?, and she needed disarming asap. You're under the illusion that Nevill was some weedy whimp who desperately needed assistance to subdue his frail daughter, and so wasted precious time on the phone, when there is no record of his son ever having helped pacify her before.  They lived separate lives and hated each other's guts - " We don't get on... I don't like her and she doesn't like me" and "She's used all the weapons in the house before" - waiting police were told. But that was a false flag to scare the $hit out of them and make Sheila out to be armed and dangerous, a latter day Bonnie Parker, when nothing could be further from the truth. Nevill was a tough, strong farmer, a wartime fighter/bomber pilot, a lifelong weapon-user who knew the damage they could do, and who towered over his daughter by a good 9"... yet you say he allowed her to slip past him with a fully-loaded rifle to take potshots at his wife and grandsons!?  What did he think they were?... fairground ducks?

2). His mouth was severely damaged so he must have been spitting out plenty blood, and any attempt to beat him on the face and arms with the butt and barrel whilst close up, as there most definitely was, would inevitably result in blood being spattered onto her face, arms, hands and clothing. Yet there was not a trace on Sheila when she should have been covered in it, so she'd need to do more than wash her hands after such a confrontation.

3). Ten out of twelve thought otherwise.

Bamber arrived 40 minutes later, rather than 15. And didn't go within 50 of WHF. And there was poor Nevill waiting for the doorbell to ring.

[Holly Goodhead]

It seems Bamber was unlucky all round.

Julie approached the police to single handedly frame an innocent Bamber. Because he apparently jilted her.

The one organisation you would expect to stop Julie straight away would be the police. After all the evidence they had must have showed Bamber was innocent. But no, SJ jumped on board with Julie.  Why ? The greedy relatives had pressurised him beforehand.

I think it comes down to the fact all concerned were out of their depth with a mass shooting.  As far as I can see the only mass shootings in the UK during the 20th/21st century are as follows:

1985 - WHF - JB or SC ?
1987 - Hungerford - Michael Ryan
1996 - Dunblane - Thomas Hamilton
2010 - Cumbria - Derrick Bird
2016 - Spalding - Lance Hart

In four of the five the perps struck in public places and were observed by numerous witnesses.  The perps took their own lives and there was no question whatsoever about who was responsible.   At the time of JB's trial the UK simply lacked the expertise in the crucial areas of ballistics and bloodstain analysis which is what the case hinges on forensically.  In the absence of this forensic information the void is filled with speculation over JB's behaviour post tragedy, whether or not tel calls were made, JM's testimony etc, etc.   

Contrast the above with mass shootings in the US:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_by_year

I blame Paul Terzeon from law firm Kingsley Napley, the late Ed Lawson and Geoffrey Rivlin for not calling in experts from the US. 

I think EP/DS Jones made the first move on JM. 

[adam]

I think it comes down to the fact all concerned were out of their depth with a mass shooting.  As far as I can see the only mass shootings in the UK during the 20th/21st century are as follows:

1985 - WHF - JB or SC ?
1987 - Hungerford - Michael Ryan
1996 - Dunblane - Thomas Hamilton
2010 - Cumbria - Derrick Bird
2016 - Spalding - Lance Hart

In four of the five the perps struck in public places and were observed by numerous witnesses.  The perps took their own lives and there was no question whatsoever about who was responsible.   At the time of JB's trial the UK simply lacked the expertise in the crucial areas of ballistics and bloodstain analysis which is what the case hinges on forensically.  In the absence of this forensic information the void is filled with speculation over JB's behaviour post tragedy, whether or not tel calls were made, JM's testimony etc, etc.   

Contrast the above with mass shootings in the US:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_by_year

I blame Paul Terzeon from law firm Kingsley Napley, the late Ed Lawson and Geoffrey Rivlin for not calling in experts from the US. . 

I think EP/DS Jones made the first move on JM.

That must be it. Everyone was out of their depth.

I've asked why Neville didn't leave the front door open for Bamber & the police. There is no point asking them to come over and save a situation him & June can't resolve,  if no one can get in.

The only response has been from Lookout. Who suggested Nevill did attempt to get to the front door.  The reason - Nevill was found in the kitchen, but some newspapers apparently & incorrectly reported that Nevill was found in the hallway.

So is using an alleged incorrect newspaper report to support a suggestion At least Nug's suggestion that RB shot himself is based on the proven fact that there was blood in the silencer.

Any other suggestions will be appreciated.

[Caroline]

I think it comes down to the fact all concerned were out of their depth with a mass shooting.  As far as I can see the only mass shootings in the UK during the 20th/21st century are as follows:

1985 - WHF - JB or SC ?
1987 - Hungerford - Michael Ryan
1996 - Dunblane - Thomas Hamilton
2010 - Cumbria - Derrick Bird
2016 - Spalding - Lance Hart

In four of the five the perps struck in public places and were observed by numerous witnesses.  The perps took their own lives and there was no question whatsoever about who was responsible.   At the time of JB's trial the UK simply lacked the expertise in the crucial areas of ballistics and bloodstain analysis which is what the case hinges on forensically.  In the absence of this forensic information the void is filled with speculation over JB's behaviour post tragedy, whether or not tel calls were made, JM's testimony etc, etc.   

Contrast the above with mass shootings in the US:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_by_year

I blame Paul Terzeon from law firm Kingsley Napley, the late Ed Lawson and Geoffrey Rivlin for not calling in experts from the US.  I hope if it is legally possible they will one day end up serving time behind bars for incompetence/negligence. 

I think EP/DS Jones made the first move on JM.

Taxi driver Michael Atherton - 2012

[John]

1.  Yes

2.  SC's hands were not forensically examined the way they should have been to check for contaminants but visual inspections state they were free of bloodstaining.

I don't think it is necessary to speculate about why SC and NB were downstairs when the physical evidence by way of bloodstaining to carpets and/or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks show the perp was in the main bedroom shooting June and NB was shot on the landing and main stairs when he sustained his gsw's to his face, shoulder and elbow.  This in itself lends support to JB's claim that NB made the call to JB from the kitchen.

3.  According to the vid I uploaded and commentary from solicitor Ewan Smith (is it Ewan or Ewen?) yes the trial judge said JM's testimony alone was not enough to convict or words to this effect.  Have you listened to the vid Samson?  If you require assistance with any IT issues David1819 is your boy man.  He has his uses.

2. So why wasn't there a pile of blood on the worktop, the floor by the kitchen phone or on the phone handset itself?  I'll tell you why...because Nevill never made any phone call.

3. The judge was correct.  Julie's testimony by itself was insuffient to convict Bamber but taken with everything else it did constitute sufficient evidence to convict.

[John]

The physical evidence at soc by way of bloodstaining to carpets and/or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks shows NB sustained his gsw's to his face, shoulder and elbow on the landing and stairs which in turn supports JB's claim that NB made the tel call from the kitchen phone.

No it doesn't, there is no evidence Nevill made any telephone call from the kitchen after being severely wounded.  In addition, he was shot in the face/jaw so would have had great difficulty speaking.  I believe we have covered this in some detail previously.

[John]

That must be it. Everyone was out of their depth.

I've asked why Neville didn't leave the front door open for Bamber & the police. There is no point asking them to come over and save a situation him & June can't resolve,  if no one can get in.

The only response has been from Lookout. Who suggested Nevill did attempt to get to the front door. The reason - Nevill was found in the kitchen, but some newspapers apparently & incorrectly reported that Nevill was found in the hallway.

So is using an alleged incorrect newspaper report to support a suggestion At least Nug's suggestion that RB shot himself is based on the proven fact that there was blood in the silencer.

Any other suggestions will be appreciated.

Another good point which I haven't seen mentioned before.  Nevill would indeed have unbolted the farmhouse door if he was expecting Jeremy to come over.

[Samson]

No it doesn't, there is no evidence Nevill made any telephone call from the kitchen after being severely wounded.  In addition, he was shot in the face/jaw so would have had great difficulty speaking.  I believe we have covered this in some detail previously.

Nevill made the phone call before he was wounded.
The fact Jeremy did not hear Sheila shooting June upstairs does not mean it did not happen, it means the sound was sufficient in the kitchen but not to transmit through the mouth piece to the phone at the other end. Telephones rquire close speaking, they are designed that way to avoid ambient noise ruining the experience for the person at the other end.

[adam]

Nevill made the phone call before he was wounded.
The fact Jeremy did not hear Sheila shooting June upstairs does not mean it did not happen, it means the sound was sufficient in the kitchen but not to transmit through the mouth piece to the phone at the other end. Telephones rquire close speaking, they are designed that way to avoid ambient noise ruining the experience for the person at the other end.

It's very doubtful Nevill would hear upstairs shots while downstairs, Bamber certainly wouldn't from his end. 

However the popular suggestion is Nevill heard upstairs shots at the exact same time Bamber answered the phone. Which explains why Nevill only said 11 words to Bamber before the phone went dead.

Another suggestion from Lookout is that Nevill heard upstairs shots while waiting for Bamber to answer. But assumed Sheila was firing warning shots into the air.