Gerry and Kate's reaction to sniffer dogs didnt make sense new ninemsn article

[John]

Part of case files
That matters not a jot
The alerts are evidence of nothing
Not even circumstantial evidence

The alerts by specially trained dogs are evidence which requires corroboration with forensics before its significance can be determined.  If the alerts weren't evidence they would not have been recorded and documented by the police in the way they were.  Again the distinction between evidence and proof should be recognised.

[ferryman]

The alerts by specially trained dogs are evidence which requires corroboration with forensics before its significance can be determined.  If the alerts weren't evidence they would not have been recorded and documented by the police in the way they were.  Again the distinction between evidence and proof should be recognised.

If there is no corroboration there is no evidence.

[G-Unit]

Every apartment of that age would have spots of blood around.  So if both eddie and Keela alerted to dessicated blood in one of the other apartments, you would consider that a red flag?

I appreciate that the dog alerts could be from the blood of someone dying, but by a multitude of odds it would be far more likely to be from a minor wound to a living person, such as a mosquito bite or minor accident.   

NOTHING at all points to Madeleine dying in that apartment ... apart from the suspicions of a man who has a record of lying .... and who "scores" if he gets a result.   

I would suggest that given the fact that both dogs alerted, which means the blood from a living person (even years ago) and that there are no reasons for suspicion of The Mccanns, no other Police Officer other than Amaral would have given the alerts any attention after a cursory examination of the situation.  They would have just been logged.

AIMHO

As early as 1st June 2007 the NPIA's profiler recommended that the PJ should investigate Madeleine's family and friends. It was the NPIA's search adviser who recommended using Grime's dogs. None of it would have happened if the UK hadn't pushed it's way into the case. It's not correct to lay all the blame on Amaral. Encarnacao and Neves were in charge, not him.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mccanns-should-be-treated-as-suspects-brit-200689

[Robittybob1]

As early as 1st June 2007 the NPIA's profiler recommended that the PJ should investigate Madeleine's family and friends. It was the NPIA's search adviser who recommended using Grime's dogs. None of it would have happened if the UK hadn't pushed it's way into the case. It's not correct to lay all the blame on Amaral. Encarnacao and Neves were in charge, not him.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mccanns-should-be-treated-as-suspects-brit-200689

When they said friends should that have included Jez Wilkins for he kept emphasising his friendship to the McCanns.  Did the tracker dogs go through his apartment? 

[Mr Gray]

The alerts by specially trained dogs are evidence which requires corroboration with forensics before its significance can be determined.  If the alerts weren't evidence they would not have been recorded and documented by the police in the way they were.  Again the distinction between evidence and proof should be recognised.

evidence
ˈɛvɪd(ə)ns/Submit
noun
1.
the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

as the uncorroborated alerts do not support any proposition they are not evidence...that is PROOF that the alerts are not evidence

grime and Harrison have confirmed this

[Admin]

evidence
ˈɛvɪd(ə)ns/Submit
noun
1.
the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

as the uncorroborated alerts do not support any proposition they are not evidence...that is PROOF that the alerts are not evidence

grime and Harrison have confirmed this

Evidence in a criminal police investigation is anything which is collected in the course of said investigation.  It does not have to have a significance to be called evidence.  Dog handler/expert Martin Grime did state that the cadaver and CSI dog alerts had no evidential reliability but they still exist as documented evidence and can be used as such if later corroborated by further findings.

[Mr Gray]

Evidence in a criminal police investigation is anything which is collected in the course of said investigation.  It does not have to have a significance to be called evidence.  Dog handler/expert Martin Grime did state that the cadaver and CSI dog alerts had no evidential reliability but they still exist as documented evidence and can be used as such if later corroborated by further findings.

Ive given a definition from a dictionary...could you show where your definition came from
according to the dictionary they do not constitute evidence..if they are corroborated they become evidence.

#how can something which has no value or reliability as evidence..be evidence..it cant

[ferryman]

Ive given a definition from a dictionary...could you show where your definition came from
according to the dictionary they do not constitute evidence..if they are corroborated they become evidence.

#how can something which has no value or reliability as evidence..be evidence..it cant

There is evidence and there is intelligence.

Uncorroborated cadaver-dog alerts are intelligence Mark Harrison says so.

I think Grime does somewhere, too.

[ferryman]

Evidence in a criminal police investigation is anything which is collected in the course of said investigation.  It does not have to have a significance to be called evidence.  Dog handler/expert Martin Grime did state that the cadaver and CSI dog alerts had no evidential reliability but they still exist as documented evidence and can be used as such if later corroborated by further findings.

You are confusing evidence and intelligence.

A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.

Mark Harrison.

[Angelo222]

You are confusing evidence and intelligence.

Mark Harrison.

Good point fm but surely intelligence can also be evidence?  The Oxford Dictionary defines evidence in part as signs or indications of something and that is exactly what the dogs alerts are.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/evidence

In law, circumstantial evidence too is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion of fact.  Consequently a cadaver dog alerting to material objects could be inferred as them having been in contact with cadaver scent.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence

[sadie]

Inevitably over time there would have been specks of blood and other body fluids on furnishings, floors and walls of all the apartments, however, the dog alerts were restricted to 5a and given that a child had disappeared from that apartment, investigators were correct to be suspicious.  Another coincidence possibly?

so why didn't the dogs alert to any of the other apartments?   These super efficient dogs with magnificent noses?


Are you saying that in the other apartments there were no specks of blood, cos I dont believe that.



The truth of the matter, John, is that the dog/s were commanded to examine the Mccann apartment in minute detail.   
Whilst the great injustice was that they were raced around the other apartments with indecent haste, as I suspect you will now remember.   One could almost wonder if the other apartments were included with a cursory glance just to satisfy  any accusations from the Mccanns/general public that they were not looked at.


The exercise was exactly like the exercise in the garage when the cars were inspected.  All the emphasis on one car there, Eddie being commanded back repeatedly with loud raps.   Eddie showed not an iota of interest in the Mccann car until called back, was it 4 times?



The other cars were just there for show, IMO.  To make the inspection look bonafide to the casual observer, IMO.   I wonder what would have happened had Eddie been repeatedly commanded back to one of those cars and Gerrys blood stained key had been in that?   
Would there have been alerts in that car too?



Mind the alerts in the Mccann car were only to dessicated blood from a living person, as Keelas alerts proved.  They could have been there months.  No cadavar odour there ....



No Cadavar odour in the car ......  so just how did The "wicked" Mccanns manage to remove Madeleines "body" to  Huelva, as Amaral claimed?

[G-Unit]

so why didn't the dogs alert to any of the other apartments?   These super efficient dogs with magnificent noses?


Are you saying that in the other apartments there were no specks of blood, cos I dont believe that.



The truth of the matter, John, is that the dog/s were commanded to examine the Mccann apartment in minute detail.   
Whilst the great injustice was that they were raced around the other apartments with indecent haste, as I suspect you will now remember.   One could almost wonder if the other apartments were included with a cursory glance just to satisfy  any accusations from the Mccanns/general public that they were not looked at.


The exercise was exactly like the exercise in the garage when the cars were inspected.  All the emphasis on one car there, Eddie being commanded back repeatedly with loud raps.   Eddie showed not an iota of interest in the Mccann car until called back, was it 4 times?



The other cars were just there for show, IMO.  To make the inspection look bonafide to the casual observer, IMO.   I wonder what would have happened had Eddie been repeatedly commanded back to one of those cars and Gerrys blood stained key had been in that?   
Would there have been alerts in that car too?



Mind the alerts in the Mccann car were only to dessicated blood from a living person, as Keelas alerts proved.  They could have been there months.  No cadavar odour there ....



No Cadavar odour in the car ......  so just how did The "wicked" Mccanns manage to remove Madeleines "body" to  Huelva, as Amaral claimed?

The blood detection dog (Keela) wasn't used in the other apartments because Eddie didn't alert in them.

[John]

so why didn't the dogs alert to any of the other apartments?   These super efficient dogs with magnificent noses?


Are you saying that in the other apartments there were no specks of blood, cos I dont believe that.



The truth of the matter, John, is that the dog/s were commanded to examine the Mccann apartment in minute detail.   
Whilst the great injustice was that they were raced around the other apartments with indecent haste, as I suspect you will now remember.   One could almost wonder if the other apartments were included with a cursory glance just to satisfy  any accusations from the Mccanns/general public that they were not looked at.


The exercise was exactly like the exercise in the garage when the cars were inspected.  All the emphasis on one car there, Eddie being commanded back repeatedly with loud raps.   Eddie showed not an iota of interest in the Mccann car until called back, was it 4 times?



The other cars were just there for show, IMO.  To make the inspection look bonafide to the casual observer, IMO.   I wonder what would have happened had Eddie been repeatedly commanded back to one of those cars and Gerrys blood stained key had been in that?   
Would there have been alerts in that car too?



Mind the alerts in the Mccann car were only to dessicated blood from a living person, as Keelas alerts proved.  They could have been there months.  No cadavar odour there ....



No Cadavar odour in the car ......  so just how did The "wicked" Mccanns manage to remove Madeleines "body" to  Huelva, as Amaral claimed?

That was the point Sadie, the dogs didn't alert in any of the other apartments, just in 5a, which would rightly lead investigators to conclude they were dealing with a death contaminants in 5a.  But then we know a former owner of 5a did die in hospital and it is not beyond the bounds of possibilities that some of his clothing or personal effects were returned to his widow in 5a and stored in a cupboard in the bedroom where Eddie alerted.

As for examining 5a in minute detail compared to the other apartments there is a very simple reason. If a dog is taken into an apartment and doesn't react at all it is withdrawn.  If the dog becomes agitated and reacts then the handler knows to extent the search further. None of this is sinister, just tried and tested procedure which I'm sure ferryman will verify.

All the cars taken to the underground car park belonged to persons of interest in the case, they were all there for a reason.  I will agree however that Eddie showed little interest initially in the McCann's hire car and was called back several times.  In the end he did react and that reaction was corroborated by further forensic tests. The dog handler was at the time though totally ignorant of what the substance on the car's key fob was.  It later being determined that it was the blood of Gerry McCann.

[sadie]

That was the point Sadie, the dogs didn't alert in any of the other apartments, just in 5a, which would rightly lead investigators to conclude they were dealing with a death contaminants in 5a.  But then we know a former owner of 5a did die in hospital and it is not beyond the bounds of possibilities that some of his clothing or personal effects were returned to his widow in 5a and stored in a cupboard in the bedroom where Eddie alerted.

And the reason why these super efficient [and yes they were, i believe] dogs didn't alert was because they were rushed around the other apartments at an indecent pace  ... IMO

[misty]

The blood detection dog (Keela) wasn't used in the other apartments because Eddie didn't alert in them.

Eddie did alert to dried blood from living humans though. Were the other apartments so super-clean that no deposits of blood from occupants over the years remained?