Gerry and Kate's reaction to sniffer dogs didnt make sense new ninemsn article

[Tim Invictus]

I dont accept the alerts have a high degree of accuracy...

Ok choose to ignore all the 90% + accuracy research  if you wish. Say the dogs were only 50% accurate .... can you calculate the chances of them being wrong 4 out of 4?

[Mr Gray]

Ok choose to ignore all the 90% + accuracy research  if you wish. Say the dogs were only 50% accurate .... can you calculate the chances of them being wrong 4 out of 4?

there is no research re alerts in real life investigative conditions...none...that would be double blind studies.....the other research is extremely limited..

the verification of the dogs is anectdotal...

[Mr Gray]

I think everyone would have to agree that grimes claim of an alert to cuddle cat was.....a bit strange

[Mr Gray]

Then we have the 3 month gap...would residual scent last that long...again no studies but imo ...unlikely due to the evaporation of the physical evidence and the dispersion of the molecules of cadaverine in the open apartment

[Tim Invictus]

Ok choose to ignore all the 90% + accuracy research  if you wish. Say the dogs were only 50% accurate .... can you calculate the chances of them being wrong 4 out of 4?

FYI at 50% accuracy the chances of the dogs being wrong 4 out 4 is 6.25% ..... @ 90% plus accuracy the chances of them being wrong 4 out of 4 is less than negligible!

[Mr Gray]

FYI at 50% accuracy the chances of the dogs being wrong 4 out 4 is 6.25% ..... @ 90% plus accuracy the chances of them being wrong 4 out of 4 is less than negligible!

and all that is irrelevant because we dont know how accurate the dogs are in these conditions

[Mr Gray]

Grime has told us that residual scent will move its location in a room,....it will pool in an area

[Tim Invictus]

and all that is irrelevant because we dont know how accurate the dogs are in these conditions

So you attach no weight or relevance to two trained sniffer dogs independently alerting to McCanns' apartment and car? You don't find it highly suspicious .... the McCanns were just unlucky eh? I find it difficult to understand anyone who doesn't at least find the alerts a cause to pause and wonder!

You seem to dismiss the dog searches as a pointless distraction without any reason to treat the alerts as meaningless!

[Mr Gray]

So you attach no weight or relevance to two trained sniffer dogs independently alerting to McCanns' apartment and car? You don't find it highly suspicious .... the McCanns were just unlucky eh? I find it difficult to understand anyone who doesn't at least find the alerts a cause to pause and wonder!

You seem to dismiss the dog searches as a pointless distraction without any reason to treat the alerts as meaningless!

the reason I treat them as meaningless is because no inference can be drawn from them according to harrison and I understand why...You wish to ignore the evidence that doesnt suit

[Tim Invictus]

the reason I treat them as meaningless is because no inference can be drawn from them according to harrison and I understand why...You wish to ignore the evidence that doesnt suit

I an new to this discussion and don't know who Harrison is .... if you enlighten me I will take a look.

[Robittybob1]

I an new to this discussion and don't know who Harrison is .... if you enlighten me I will take a look.

I use http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TRANSLATIONS.htm  then search (find) for Harrison
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm

[sadie]

So you attach no weight or relevance to two trained sniffer dogs independently alerting to McCanns' apartment and car? You don't find it highly suspicious .... the McCanns were just unlucky eh? I find it difficult to understand anyone who doesn't at least find the alerts a cause to pause and wonder!

You seem to dismiss the dog searches as a pointless distraction without any reason to treat the alerts as meaningless!

Tim, there has been an enormous amount of discussion on what the dog alerts mean or do not mean ... with documents provided proving points.


From these we discovered that Eddie was doubly trained to alert
1)  to the desicated blood from a living operson
2)  to the scent of cadavar odour.
Once trained to an odour, he couldn't be untrained.

Therefore nobody knew whether he was alerting to old blood from a living person (could be 20 years old) or to cadavar odour.


To find out which it was, dried  blood from a living person or cadavar odour, the dog Keela was brought in.  She only alerted to living blood.  So she was used in conjuction with Eddie.


If she didn't alert, then the chances were that it was the smell of a cadavar, because she didn't alert to that  odour.

If both dogs alerted then it was the desicated blood from a ,living person (maybe 10-30 years old blood even)


In every place bar one, where both dogs were used, both dogs alerted meaning that it was NOT Cadavar Odour.  This was true in all situations.


The one and only one place that Eddie alone alerted to was in the area by the wardrobe and headboard of the parents bed. 


But before jumping to any wrong conclusions, it is important to know that the Grandparents of Tasmin Silence lived in 5A a few years previously   Her Grandfather died in hospital and the question is what happened to his clothes and personal effects afterwards.  They would have cadavar odour on them.

To me, in such a small place, the most obvious place for them to be kept is by the Grandmothers bed, both for sentimental reasons and convenience.

What we dont know is, was the Grandpa cremated?  What happened to his ashes?  Was the urn kept on the bedside table for sentimental reasons ?   Cadavar dogs alert to burn remains we are told, so would alert to the ashes.



Seems Amaral didn't understand it ... and still doesn't



Hope we have brought you up to date now, Tim.

[Brietta]

So you attach no weight or relevance to two trained sniffer dogs independently alerting to McCanns' apartment and car? You don't find it highly suspicious .... the McCanns were just unlucky eh? I find it difficult to understand anyone who doesn't at least find the alerts a cause to pause and wonder!

You seem to dismiss the dog searches as a pointless distraction without any reason to treat the alerts as meaningless!

One dog ... Keela ... was trained to alert only to blood.
One dog ... Eddie ... was trained to alert to cadaver and residual  scent, but his initial training as a victim recovery dog meant that he also alerted to blood.

In the vehicle check, Eddie alerted only outside the driver's door.  Keela alerted inside the vehicle at the door and in the boot.
Forensics proved that both dogs had alerted to a key fob which had been in the door pocket which was contaminated with cellular material from Gerald McCann.

Please note; there was NO cadaver alert associated with the hire vehicle. 

What Eddie alerted to in 5A is anyone's guess but it wasn't anything that left any forensic trace therefore to all intents and purposes, absolutely meaningless.


Snip
Handler Martin Grimes, who worked with his dogs on the Maddie case, admitted the animals offered no more than 'a guide'.

He said: 'They can identify traces of blood and detect the smell of a decomposing body, but that is as far as they go.'

Martin said his dogs Keela and Eddie would only give him an indication when they find what they are trained to detect.

He said: 'Blood could be invisible to the naked eye, but Keela will detect it. It doesn't matter if it's hundreds of years old.

'Eddie smells for the scent of a decomposing human body. He can detect any part of a human body that is decomposing ' hair, bones, flesh, anything.  Martin Grime
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/19-Sep8/SUN1_05_09_2008.htm

[pathfinder73]

Martin Grime's professional opinion which I take note of is ALL Eddie alerts were for cadaver scent. After all, he is the expert not you.

The key blood alert matched Gerry. The boot blood alert didn't!

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

A low level incomplete DNA profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on the key card (286C/2007-CRL(12)). This sample has not been sent for further testing using LCN DNA profiling tests.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

Why not? Maybe it could have mysteriously turned into 3-5 different people making up the profile  &%+((£

[misty]

There is an interesting article here from the California Canine Specialist Search Team, which shows that their dogs are not just trained to alert but also to then show the handler the scent source (and how the dogs were both right & wrong)

http://www.csst.org/box_effect.html