Author Topic: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...  (Read 62651 times)

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Offline John

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #195 on: May 20, 2017, 01:48:26 PM »
Then she should have chosen somewhere other than Canada.

I understand Julie was more or less forced abroad by her connection to the Bamber case, an intolerable situation to be in.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline APRIL

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #196 on: May 20, 2017, 02:17:26 PM »
I understand Julie was more or less forced abroad by her connection to the Bamber case, an intolerable situation to be in.

Had Julie maintained a low profile and dignified presence, it may well have gone better for her. She did herself no favours by her own behaviours post trial. However, in her defense, she was still only 21 and had been through emotional and psychological hell. If we've never been there, who are we to judge? I imagine she used some of the money to travel, during which time she met her future husband, who just happened to be a Canadian.

Offline steve_trousers

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #197 on: May 23, 2017, 02:05:53 PM »
Had Julie maintained a low profile and dignified presence, it may well have gone better for her. She did herself no favours by her own behaviours post trial. However, in her defense, she was still only 21 and had been through emotional and psychological hell. If we've never been there, who are we to judge? I imagine she used some of the money to travel, during which time she met her future husband, who just happened to be a Canadian.

I am not sure what you mean, as I was always under the impression that she HAD maintained a dignified silence post trial. And you can't get much lower profile than moving to another continent under another name. Or have I got this wrong and missed something?

The only publicity I can think of was the 25k newspaper deal at the time, and as far as I'm concerned that was thoroughly well deserved, as she had been though the emotional and psychological hell at the hands of this psychopath that you referred to above.


Offline APRIL

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #198 on: May 23, 2017, 03:26:18 PM »
I am not sure what you mean, as I was always under the impression that she HAD maintained a dignified silence post trial. And you can't get much lower profile than moving to another continent under another name. Or have I got this wrong and missed something?

The only publicity I can think of was the 25k newspaper deal at the time, and as far as I'm concerned that was thoroughly well deserved, as she had been though the emotional and psychological hell at the hands of this psychopath that you referred to above.

Did you not see the pictures of her? Satin toga, split to the thigh? Telling the world that he'd given her sex like never before? Hardly dignified in the wake of 5 deaths, 2 of whom being the age group of those she was planning to teach.

Offline steve_trousers

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #199 on: May 23, 2017, 06:44:58 PM »
Did you not see the pictures of her? Satin toga, split to the thigh? Telling the world that he'd given her sex like never before? Hardly dignified in the wake of 5 deaths, 2 of whom being the age group of those she was planning to teach.

I must confess I didn't, having never read a tabloid in my life. Therefore yes I agree that is wholly inappropriate.

At the same time we know what the gutter press is like, they would have insisted on lurid details and photographs such as those, these swine know what sells newspapers.

As you said I think we can forgive her taking into account her age, and there is no doubt this thoroughly decent young woman deserved every penny following her ordeal at the hands of this evil psychopath.

Offline steve_trousers

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #200 on: May 23, 2017, 08:19:18 PM »
More than happy to consider this if you find a source?

AE observed JB's arm(s) on 9th Aug.  This was some 3 days after the murders.  AE said he was wearing a short sleeved shirt.  Why would he wear short sleeves if he was sporting defence wounds? 

JM makes no mention of any marks to his person.  He was seen by others at CC's house over the w/e of 10th/11th Aug with a towel around his waist no one observed any marks to his person.  On w/e of 17th/18th he went windsurfing with JM and another couple no one observed any marks to his person.

Had another look at Roger Wilkes definitive book on the case over the past few days. I admit I cannot find reference to any marks on Jeremy's arms in the days after the murders, only a plaster on his finger supposedly from some faux pas on the farm before the murders.

So I am unable to provide a source for that, but it's notable that both John and I referred to it in separate posts. I wonder where it comes from ?


Offline Samson

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #201 on: May 23, 2017, 11:23:18 PM »
Had another look at Roger Wilkes definitive book on the case over the past few days. I admit I cannot find reference to any marks on Jeremy's arms in the days after the murders, only a plaster on his finger supposedly from some faux pas on the farm before the murders.

So I am unable to provide a source for that, but it's notable that both John and I referred to it in separate posts. I wonder where it comes from ?
Here is the first paragraph of the only on line review.

I remember I was 10yrs old when these murders took place and it seemed like a pretty open and shut case. After reading this book, I'm not so sure anymore. The police really did screw up this investigation and were extremely sloppy. I don't think this book proves that Jeremy Bamber is innocent beyond doubt, but I don't think the evidence proves his guilt beyond reasonable doubt either. Many people including members of Bamber's family commented on his behavior, which they found suspicious. To be honest, I found the behavior of the Eatons and Beautflours to be far more unusual, and in some cases quite appalling. The fact that they were going in and out of that house and helping themselves to stuff was pretty tacky

It looks like you found what you wanted Steve but this reviewer seems to have understood the case correctly.

Offline steve_trousers

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #202 on: May 23, 2017, 11:59:26 PM »
Here is the first paragraph of the only on line review.

I remember I was 10yrs old when these murders took place and it seemed like a pretty open and shut case. After reading this book, I'm not so sure anymore. The police really did screw up this investigation and were extremely sloppy. I don't think this book proves that Jeremy Bamber is innocent beyond doubt, but I don't think the evidence proves his guilt beyond reasonable doubt either. Many people including members of Bamber's family commented on his behavior, which they found suspicious. To be honest, I found the behavior of the Eatons and Beautflours to be far more unusual, and in some cases quite appalling. The fact that they were going in and out of that house and helping themselves to stuff was pretty tacky

It looks like you found what you wanted Steve but this reviewer seems to have understood the case correctly.

It really is a good, objective book. I recommend you read it. I did and came away safe in the knowledge that there is absolutely no doubt Jeremy Bamber is guilty as charged.


« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 12:14:39 AM by steve_trousers »

Offline Samson

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #203 on: May 24, 2017, 03:25:12 AM »
It really is a good, objective book. I recommend you read it. I did and came away safe in the knowledge that there is absolutely no doubt Jeremy Bamber is guilty as charged.
I can't get it on Kindle, so for now I will work with two reviews. Your's and the one on Amazon.
The Amazon reviewer clearly had no bias, but could you say Wilkes' book was your intro to the case like that reviewer?

You see I have no doubt he is innocent after reading Carol Ann Lee's book and the long post that has disappeared showing the origins of Mugford's testimony.
The forensics work perfectly with Sheila heading upstairs with the gun while Nevill phones Jeremy.
The big moving part, or epicycle that disappears, is the faked suicide. That becomes real and the factual side of the case, if not the legal, is closed.
Thank you however for your thoughts on the case.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 03:28:48 AM by Samson »

Offline adam

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #204 on: May 24, 2017, 04:53:55 AM »
Here is the first paragraph of the only on line review.

I remember I was 10yrs old when these murders took place and it seemed like a pretty open and shut case. After reading this book, I'm not so sure anymore. The police really did screw up this investigation and were extremely sloppy. I don't think this book proves that Jeremy Bamber is innocent beyond doubt, but I don't think the evidence proves his guilt beyond reasonable doubt either. Many people including members of Bamber's family commented on his behavior, which they found suspicious. To be honest, I found the behavior of the Eatons and Beautflours to be far more unusual, and in some cases quite appalling. The fact that they were going in and out of that house and helping themselves to stuff was pretty tacky

It looks like you found what you wanted Steve but this reviewer seems

Amazon has 11 online reviews on the book.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 09:49:45 AM by John »

Offline adam

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #205 on: May 24, 2017, 05:09:07 AM »
It really is a good, objective book. I recommend you read it. I did and came away safe in the knowledge that there is absolutely no doubt Jeremy Bamber is guilty as charged.

I read it after reading & watching all the pro and anti Bamber items on the internet and Youtube. The reviews on Amazon gave the book the best scores and said it was least biased book.

Wilkes does say there is overwhelming evidence against Bamber which has always been the case . But reports events from the time Sheila visited Bamber on his tractor hours before the massacre, to 1996 in an unbiased way. Wilkes interviewed everyone except Julie.

I've recommended David reads it or CAL's book which has got good reviews, to give him a better understanding of the case.


Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #206 on: May 24, 2017, 09:17:38 AM »
Can we stick to debating the FACTS of the case as we perceive them please and leave out the silliness regarding perceptions of posters' level of case knowledge.  The latter doesn't contribute anything worthwhile to the debate and has the potential to antagonise and disrupt the forum.  Thanks.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #207 on: May 24, 2017, 09:27:43 AM »
Had another look at Roger Wilkes definitive book on the case over the past few days. I admit I cannot find reference to any marks on Jeremy's arms in the days after the murders, only a plaster on his finger supposedly from some faux pas on the farm before the murders.

So I am unable to provide a source for that, but it's notable that both John and I referred to it in separate posts. I wonder where it comes from ?

Ground 13, point 444 of the CoA hearing 2002 seems to cover these points along with AE's WS's:

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8100.msg405977#msg405977
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #208 on: May 24, 2017, 09:51:30 AM »
I read it after reading & watching all the pro and anti Bamber items on the internet and Youtube. The reviews on Amazon gave the book the best scores and said it was least biased book.

Wilkes does say there is overwhelming evidence against Bamber which has always been the case . But reports events from the time Sheila visited Bamber on his tractor hours before the massacre, to 1996 in an unbiased way. Wilkes interviewed everyone except Julie.

I've recommended David reads it or CAL's book which has got good reviews, to give him a better understanding of the case.

But to date all the books just regurgitate what went before.  There's no evidence any of the expert witnesses or lawyers had any experience in the most important aspects of the case eg ballistics.  The only mass shootings in the UK during peacetime involve the likes of Ryan, Hamilton and Bird.  These cases were uncontested and clearly mass murder/suicide.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: For Those That Believe JB Guilty...
« Reply #209 on: May 24, 2017, 09:56:45 AM »
Ground 13, point 444 of the CoA hearing 2002 seems to cover these points along with AE's WS's:

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8100.msg405977#msg405977

Thank you Holly.  I think it worth reproducing Ground 13 in its entirety.  In mitigation I think it is worth pointing out that the murders took place on the 7th August 1985 and it wasn't until over a month later, on the 12th September that DS Jones inspected Jeremy Bamber's hands.

Ground 13 – scars on the appellant's hands 444. With all respect to the appellant's team, we have found this ground of appeal incomprehensible. Indeed, and in fairness to him, Mr Turner conceded at the outset of his submissions that he did not put this forward as a free-standing ground of appeal, and preferred to rely upon it as no more than an element in the factual background to his overarching allegation of unsatisfactory police behaviour. Nevertheless, for the sake of completeness, and in order to assess whether this particular complaint adds anything to the overall strength of the appellant's case, we are satisfied that we should consider and deal with it, albeit briefly.

445. The starting point for such consideration is the fact that at no point during the trial was any evidence led from any witness, nor any witness cross-examined, to establish or suggest that the appellant had at any material time had any scars or scratches on his hands. Indeed, on the hand-written postcard note from Ann Eaton (CAE/4) which was disclosed at trial, the entry for the 8 August recorded "No scratches on his hands - no shaking at all".

446. At one stage during his interview on 12 September 1985 DS Jones asked Mr Bamber to show him his hands, and he examined both the palms and the backs. He offered no explanation to the appellant as to why he had done this, but it seems highly likely that the stimulus for this action was a telephone call that appears to have been made on the previous day to the police by Anthony Pargeter, who was Nevill Bamber's nephew. He is said to have reported having seen small "circular scars" on Jeremy Bamber's right hand. This piece of information triggered a series of actions. By Action no. 96, on the 12 September 1985 DI Bright was instructed to take a further statement from Mr Pargeter on this matter. No result of this action is recorded, and no formal statement from Mr Pargeter appears in the documentation in the case. This may well be because of the other information that was forthcoming on the matter. By Action no. 97 of the same date DS Jones was instructed to interview the appellant on the same topic - and DS Jones' response referred to the notes of interview and reported that there were no marks visible.

447. On the 14 September 1985 by Action no. 200, DC Thomerson was instructed to take a statement from David Boutflour (the son of Robert Boutflour) to include, among other matters, any sightings of cuts on the appellant's hands on the day after the killings. This action produced a statement from David Boutflour which included a passage in which he stated that on the Wednesday or Thursday after the killings Jeremy Bamber had made a comment to him about having received two small cuts on his hand while working on the farm. "As he made this comment he showed me the palm of his right hand, but as I was about 5 feet away from him at the time I could not see the scratches to which he referred." This passage did not appear in the edited statement of this witness, which was served on the defence as evidence for use at trial. On 16 September, by Action no. 201, instructions were given for the trigger guard of the rifle to be examined by the Forensic Science Laboratory for blood. There is no record of any result.

448. By Action no. 302 on 19 September 1985 DS Jones was asked to submit a report about these matters, and in his reply DS Jones repeated that when Mr Bamber had been interviewed "There were no visible signs of scars etc". He added that if and when the appellant was re-interviewed an ultra violet light could be used to examine his hands again. This suggestion was picked up on the 24 September 1985 in Action no. 396 when DS Jones was instructed to carry out such an examination; but his response as recorded on the action sheet was "Bamber charged; above not done on instructions of A/D/C/ Superintendent Ainsley." Indeed, on the 26 September 1985 a letter from the office of the DPP indicated that in the view of the Director the appellant should not now be further interviewed.

449. As has already been made clear, the prosecution case against the appellant was conducted on the basis that there was no sign of any injuries to his hand subsequent to the killings. The complaint that the prosecution had kept the defence in ignorance of material which would have permitted them to mount an attack on the veracity of Mr Pargeter is misconceived; there was never any necessity to mount any such attack. Mr Pargeter had never given any evidence which incriminated the appellant in any way. So far from the prosecution seeking to advance dubious evidence hostile to the appellant's interests, it appears that they were unwilling to advance any suggestions by Mr Boutflour or Mr Pargeter that they were not able to confirm for themselves to be soundly based. One of the more remarkable contentions in the appellant's skeleton argument on this topic is the assertion that the defence "were kept in ignorance of the fact of the officer's examination of the appellant's hands....". The appellant, of all people, plainly knew himself that that had happened.

450. Finally, the decision not to pursue the instruction given under Action no. 396 and not to re-interview the appellant again was entirely consistent with code C under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, given that by that time the appellant was either about to be or indeed had just been charged.

451. In our judgment there is no foundation whatsoever for the suggestion that the matters complained of under this ground of appeal resulted in any prejudice to the appellant in the conduct of his defence. Nor, in our judgment, do the facts underlying these complaints provide any support for the assertion that the police officers concerned were determined to withhold information from the appellant or his advisors in an attempt to influence the evidence in favour of a prosecution. In reality, the opposite appears to be the case.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 12:27:29 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.