For Those That Believe JB Guilty...

[Myster]

Adam I'm struggling to upload the forensic text book I mentioned above.  I will continue with my endeavours.  Otherwise you may need to pop round so we can go through it together.  I see from your forum profile you are 19 years of age.  I'm not sure if that's current or when you joined.  In any event I like young men very much 

The "1" is a mistake, it should be a "7".  Adam mistyped it..... intentionally!

[Samson]

Any sort of "ritual cleanse" and/or changing into a clean nightdress makes no sense in terms of an absence of gsr/gun oil as it doesn't account for the fact two shots were fired over SC's body whilst the rifle was in very close proximity to SC's body.  The rifle was found resting on SC's person/nightdress with her hand/fingers resting on the rifle.  According to FSS tests carried out concluded the following:

51. Mrs Caffell's nightdress was bloodstained. When tested the blood was consistent with being her own blood. The garment was also examined for the presence of any firearm discharge residues or oil from the rifle. No such traces were found. The scientist gave evidence that there would be a strong chance of finding such residues or markings on the clothing of an individual who had fired a rifle twenty-five times.

Adam I've uploaded a forensic textbook.  Chapter 12 deals with 'Detection of Gunshot Residues'.  By the mid-80' there were 3 generally accepted methods of analysing GSR:

- neutron activation
- flameless atomic absorption spectrometry (FAAS)
- scanning electon microscope energy dispersive x-ray spectrometry (SEM-EDX)

Have you any idea if the method used in the WHF case was one of the above?  If so which one?  If not one of the above do you know which method was used?

Well done Holly for clarifying a simple error the guilters make, using shoddy forensics to prove Sheila never had the rifle any where near her, BUT SHE DID. 

[APRIL]

Well done Holly for clarifying a simple error the guilters make, using shoddy forensics to prove Sheila never had the rifle any where near her, BUT SHE DID. 

As far as I'm aware, none of the guilters here are blind. It would therefore be incredulously stupid of them to suggest "Sheila never had the rifle anywhere near her" when there are pictures to the contrary.

[Angelo222]

I believe Samson is referring to her using the rifle when it is obvious she didn't.  This was Bamber's last port of call, to blame Sheila for everything that happened, but nobody is falling for it.  What a waste!!

[APRIL]

I believe Samson is referring to her using the rifle when it is obvious she didn't.  This was Bamber's last port of call, to blame Sheila for everything that happened, but nobody is falling for it.  What a waste!!

Thank you for clarifying that, A.222. Samson obviously isn't entirely au fait with our phraseology

[Angelo222]

Thank you for clarifying that, A.222. Samson obviously isn't entirely au fait with our phraseology

I have never understood how anyone can persist with the silly notion that JB is innocent to the extent some do by ignoring the very straightforward evidence.  You don't have to be Sherlock to see what happened at WHF.

[APRIL]

I have never understood how anyone can persist with the silly notion that JB is innocent to the extent some do by ignoring the very straightforward evidence.  You don't have to be Sherlock to see what happened at WHF.

You may not know that I was once convinced of his innocence. I confess to still having very rare moments of questioning my belief in his guilt now that I've changed sides. However, what brings me back to reality is the thought of him idling his way through a phone book, at silly o'clock, to look up local police stations after his father had allegedly called him to say that Sheila had gone mad and got hold of a gun. Not satisfied with that, he calls his girlfriend before he speaks to the police.

[Holly Goodhead]

I have never understood how anyone can persist with the silly notion that JB is innocent to the extent some do by ignoring the very straightforward evidence.  You don't have to be Sherlock to see what happened at WHF.

I don't consider the evidence very straightforward.  To my mind it is extremely complex, but that's my mind!

[steve_trousers]

You may not know that I was once convinced of his innocence. I confess to still having very rare moments of questioning my belief in his guilt now that I've changed sides. However, what brings me back to reality is the thought of him idling his way through a phone book, at silly o'clock, to look up local police stations after his father had allegedly called him to say that Sheila had gone mad and got hold of a gun. Not satisfied with that, he calls his girlfriend before he speaks to the police.

Exactly. And also the fact he left the gun out after rabbit shoot minus silencer, blood is found in the silencer indicating silencer used in murders. so not only did Sheila have a nice bubble bath before her suicide to wash the debris off her, she also kindly put the silencer back in the gun cupboard located at the opposite end of the house (and different floor) from where she was found, before shooting herself in the neck TWICE. It appears that after "going crazy and getting the gun" she found the composure to try and frame Jeremy for the murders otherwise why else clean up after her?

Plus this feeble individual who couldn't drink a cup of water without using both hands, or put one arm out without having to put the other arm out in the other direction to steady herself is supposed to have loosed off 25 out of 26 shots on target with a gun never used before, and battered her strong fit father into unconsciousness after a prolonged life and death struggle in the kitchen. No comparison can be drawn with Tracie Andrews there.

I'm sorry for me this isn't complex it Is a straightforward open and shut case which the jury got right first time round in 1986, and everything that has happened in the intervening 32 years has only served to strengthen the case against him. A case based on a veritable mountain of forensic, physical and circumstantial evidence.

[Samson]

You may not know that I was once convinced of his innocence. I confess to still having very rare moments of questioning my belief in his guilt now that I've changed sides. However, what brings me back to reality is the thought of him idling his way through a phone book, at silly o'clock, to look up local police stations after his father had allegedly called him to say that Sheila had gone mad and got hold of a gun. Not satisfied with that, he calls his girlfriend before he speaks to the police.

This is just the worst type of reason to change sides April.
20/20 hindsight is employed here. You can only imagine one universe, that where there are 5 bodies, but everything you describe is before he knew anything happened.
This explains all the oddities. He knows Sheila is a nutbar, but not a killer.

As has often been pointed out at a sane forum like IA, the best strategy for a guilty Bamber is to lie low till normal farm time, turn up, call the cops and say,
Look at this, that crazy sister of mine has finally cracked and killed them all. After all, Taff Jones decided that was what had happened immediately. All the ideas Bamber would add a complex portfolio of moving parts with phone calls and so on is ridiculous.
In fact I will start a thread so we can discuss this. Not right now, but when I have thought it through more thoroughly.

[steve_trousers]

This is just the worst type of reason to change sides April.
20/20 hindsight is employed here. You can only imagine one universe, that where there are 5 bodies, but everything you describe is before he knew anything happened.
This explains all the oddities. He knows Sheila is a nutbar, but not a killer.

As has often been pointed out at a sane forum like IA, the best strategy for a guilty Bamber is to lie low till normal farm time, turn up, call the cops and say,
Look at this, that crazy sister of mine has finally cracked and killed them all. After all, Taff Jones decided that was what had happened immediately. All the ideas Bamber would add a complex portfolio of moving parts with phone calls and so on is ridiculous.
In fact I will start a thread so we can discuss this. Not right now, but when I have thought it through more thoroughly.

Samson old boy, I think you are correct and that was his plan up until the point where things started to go awry, i.e having to shoot Sheila a second time and the climactic battle with Nevill in the kitchen.

My view is that he then changed tack and realised the importance of police hearing his version of events first, and not Mrs Wilson's.

Out of interest I am assuming here that Mrs Wilson would have been the first to discover the bodies had police not been called at 03:30? but then again it was a sunday morning perhaps I am wrong and Mrs Wilson wasn't going to WHF that day..

[John]

I don't consider the evidence very straightforward.  To my mind it is extremely complex, but that's my mind!

I think anyone holding onto that faint glimmer of belief in his innocence will struggle to make sense of it. Had there really been a phone call from Nevill, speedy Gonzales would have been down at the farm within 5 minutes.  As it was he took his time, even taking time to casually telephone Julie with the news, then trot off at snails pace down to the farm stopping along the way to put on a jumper while the police zoom past him.  All very convenient and all so predictably stupid.

In my view, the only reason some police were wrong footed in the beginning was because they couldn't accept that Jeremy was in any way capable of such a dreadful deed. 

[Holly Goodhead]

I think anyone holding onto that faint glimmer of belief in his innocence will struggle to make sense of it. Had there really been a phone call from Nevill, speedy Gonzales would have been down at the farm within 5 minutes.  As it was he took his time, even taking time to casually telephone Julie with the news, then trot off at snails pace down to the farm stopping along the way to put on a jumper while the police zoom past him.  All very convenient and all so predictably stupid.

In my view, the only reason some police were wrong footed in the beginning was because they couldn't accept that Jeremy was in any way capable of such a dreadful deed.

Well as I said recently I give little weight to the phone calls, lay witness testimony and JB's behaviour pre and post tragedy.  Instead I prefer to ponder the aspects that have some basis in science: attachment theory, blood/silencer and SoC.  To my mind these aspects are not straightforward.   

[Tim Invictus]

How anyone who has even a loose grasp of the facts of the Bamber case can believe him innocent remains quite beyond my comprehension. None of Jeremy's remaining family or old friends doubt his guilt; nor do any of the police or judges who have been involved in the case.

Jeremy himself kindly proved beyond any doubt that either he or Sheila committed the murders as it is quite impossible that Sheila neither could of or would have murdered her adored twins and her parents it has to have been Jeremy.

Is it not extremely arrogant for any Bamber not guilty exponent to presume they know better than JB's and Sheila's remaining family members and every officer, judge and the CCRC directly involved in the case and the jury that convicted him?

[david1819]

How anyone who has even a loose grasp of the facts of the Bamber case can believe him innocent remains quite beyond my comprehension. None of Jeremy's remaining family or old friends doubt his guilt; nor do any of the police or judges who have been involved in the case.

Jeremy himself kindly proved beyond any doubt that either he or Sheila committed the murders as it is quite impossible that Sheila neither could of or would have murdered her adored twins and her parents it has to have been Jeremy.

Is it not extremely arrogant for any Bamber not guilty exponent to presume they know better than JB's and Sheila's remaining family members and every officer, judge and the CCRC directly involved in the case and the jury that convicted him?

There are probably a dozen individuals in those organizations you mention that know Jeremy is innocent. The ramifications that would result from them admitting to it would be incredible.