Author Topic: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence  (Read 194077 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #255 on: March 06, 2018, 12:59:50 PM »
You might not but a court does... On the basis a human can be Cross examined but a dog can't... More evidence you do not understand  the evidence

I'm not discussing how courts deal with evidence, I'm discussing what evidence is, and it's not just omething that's used in court.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #256 on: March 06, 2018, 01:05:09 PM »
I'm not discussing how courts deal with evidence, I'm Rdiscussing what evidence is, and it's not just omething that's used in court.

You are giving your own opinion of what evidence is... I'm giving a recognised standard of evidence

Offline Carana

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #257 on: March 06, 2018, 01:06:26 PM »
I see no difference between a trained dog's alert and a statement by a person. Both exist, both express opinions and both can be proved right or wrong by other evidence.


Hmmm. My view is that it's not necessarily that simple.

A dog reacts. A handler interprets.

There is not a single "human cadaver odour" but many components, many of which can occur naturally and can be totally irrelevant, or be present at different stages, or in the presence of some substances, or present in common VOCs between species, but can still trigger a reaction.

Sometimes a whole human cadaver isn't present, therefore the entire spectrum isn't present. A bit of bone probably won't smell the same to a dog as decomposing gut, or a potentially irrelevant nicked bit of flesh in a kitchen mishap. Or blood or semen. Nor even may the dog be able to distinguish between certain "aromas" common across species.

There is also the issue of the fact that the dog may have picked up on a certain amount of "anticipation" in certain areas and Eddie could have been anxious to please by picking out anything within his (undefined) parameters. That's conjecture, but possible,

In the absence of corroborating forensic evidence, the whole thing is just a question mark. IMO.

Is it possible that she did in fact die in that flat? Yes, I don't see how that could be excluded as a possibility. Do the dog alerts prove that? No. Is there forensic evidence to support that she did? No.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 01:17:32 PM by Carana »

Offline Carana

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #258 on: March 06, 2018, 01:10:34 PM »
So Grime, through all his correspondence and statements, has never said that Eddie reacts only to the residual scent of blood.

I've no idea what you're trying to make me say, nor why, Faith. lol

For the umpteennth time, Grime never said that Eddie would only react to the physical presence of blood, but he did say that about Keela.

Offline Lace

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #259 on: March 06, 2018, 01:11:12 PM »

I am not on about what [you] thought he meant, its what he said. - you are twisting it.

your opinion is wrong - on what you thought he meant.

He challenged the police, find the body prove we killed her.

There is no evidence that Gerry said 'find the body and prove we killed her'.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #260 on: March 06, 2018, 01:18:56 PM »

I am not on about what [you] thought he meant, its what he said. - you are twisting it.

your opinion is wrong - on what you thought he meant.

He challenged the police, find the body prove we killed her.

The PJ know who did it in this case. They've always wanted to reopen to finish it. Their Supreme Court confirmed it. SY can be the media focus. After 2007 the PJ didn't need another circus IMO.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 01:21:00 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Carana

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #261 on: March 06, 2018, 01:26:16 PM »
There is no evidence that Gerry said 'find the body and prove we killed her'.


He could equally have asked if there was proof that she was definitely dead and that, as her parents, they wanted to know if there was any proof, or whether they were still in limbo as to her fate.

Where did this 'find the body and prove we killed her' headline originate?


Offline Carana

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #262 on: March 06, 2018, 01:28:24 PM »
The PJ know who did it in this case. They've always wanted to reopen to finish it. Their Supreme Court confirmed it. SY can be the media focus. After 2007 the PJ didn't need another circus IMO.


You've totally lost me, PF. I haven't the faintest idea what you're basing your assertions on.

Offline Lace

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #263 on: March 06, 2018, 01:28:54 PM »
The PJ know who did it in this case. They've always wanted to reopen to finish it. Their Supreme Court confirmed it. SY can be the media focus. After 2007 the PJ didn't need another circus IMO.


So where does Gerry say 'find the body and prove we killed her?'

Offline Lace

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #264 on: March 06, 2018, 01:29:19 PM »

He could equally have asked if there was proof that she was definitely dead and that, as her parents, they wanted to know if there was any proof, or whether they were still in limbo as to her fate.

Where did this 'find the body and prove we killed her' headline originate?


I don't know where it originated from Carana,  but it is obvious that whatever Gerry said it has been twisted.


Offline pathfinder73

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #265 on: March 06, 2018, 01:32:30 PM »
You've totally lost me, PF. I haven't the faintest idea what you're basing your assertions on.

The PJ know who did it and want to finish it IMO. Their Supreme Court had to come out with the truth. The McCanns have never been cleared in this case regardless of their official non-suspect status like in Aug 07.

3 May 2017

Paulo Ribeiro was one of four local suspects who denied any involvement when questioned by British detectives.

Pedro do Carmo, deputy director of the Policia Judiciaria, told Panorama he had never considered them to be suspects.

"I can only say that we questioned those people on request of the Metropolitan Police and only based on the request of the Metropolitan Police.

"We never questioned those people. We never saw or looked at those people as suspects of the crime."

Last week, Scotland Yard announced there was no evidence to implicate the four men and the case against them had been closed.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39779256
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 01:43:45 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline misty

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #266 on: March 06, 2018, 01:36:21 PM »

I don't know where it originated from Carana,  but it is obvious that whatever Gerry said it has been twisted.

It was a newspaper headline.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/the-deleted-daily-express-articles-in-chronologica-t247-s120.html

Thursday September 13,2007
By Padraic Flanagan in Praia da Luz Have your say(24)
THE parents of missing Madeleine McCann yesterday challenged the police: “Find the body and prove we killed her.”

The couple, who are suspected over the child’s death and the disposal of her body, issued the startling ultimatum as the public prosecutor in Portugal sent the police case against them to a judge.

It is thought that the McCanns’ high-powered lawyers have told them that without a body it will be extremely difficult for the authorities to press charges.

Where is the evidence that Madeleine is dead

A close friend said: “The legitimate question to ask Portuguese police is: ‘Where is the body? Where is the evidence that Madeleine is dead? We have got no idea’.”

The change in the family’s tone – just days after the McCanns were still pleading for the search for Madeleine to continue – surprised sources close to the investigation. ........cont

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #267 on: March 06, 2018, 01:36:50 PM »
So where does Gerry say 'find the body and prove we killed her?'

Another example of not understanding the evidence?

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #268 on: March 06, 2018, 01:39:49 PM »
As far as courts are concerned there are two types of evidence.
Direct Evidence and Indirect Evidence a.k.a Circumstantial Evidence. The judge is final arbiter on what may be presented in his court.
Few convictions are realised from direct evidence alone.
As far as this thread is concerned I wonder what Talking Heads would say about it?  This maybe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWtCittJyr0
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Carana

Re: Do the sceptics simply misunderstand the evidence
« Reply #269 on: March 06, 2018, 01:43:35 PM »
Another example of not understanding the evidence?

I don't think it was even about evidence... just another quite possibly distorted tabloid headline to ensure sales.