What did Kate McCann really see in the Children's Bedroom

[Alice Purjorick]

Apparently we are attempting to redefine research.
The old established definition no longer being acceptable in certain quarters; especially if it says something one does not like.
This way to The Ministry of Truth =>=>=>=> 

[kmoore1967]

Thank you for your patience in waiting for me to come to answer as I had things to do.

OK, I go with the original interviews.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CASE_FILES_INDEX.htm
Michelle Thompson

"Kate continued that when she entered the apartment via the patio doors, a breeze hit her in the face as if a door or window was open. When she entered the children's room, the window was open, the blind had been forced and Madeleine had disappeared."

Leicestershire Police Squad
Witness Testimony
CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5?(3) e 5B; Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1

Dianne Webster
- However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed.
949 to 954 Witness statement of Dianne Webster 2007.05.11
955-Consent for moth swab of Dianne Webster 2007.05.11

Jill Renwick on GMTV 4 May, 2007
Jill Renwick, a family friend, told GMTV on 04 May: "She's obviously been taken as she couldn't have gone out on her own and the shutters had been forced open."

44 to 46   Witness statement of Claire Louise Fawkes (former Ocean Club holidaymaker) 2008.04.22)

It had a window which I think we never opened and a metal shutter that covered the entire window on the outside, but which was controlled from the inside of the bedroom either electronically or by a belt that was pulled. It was nearly always closed, but on occasions we would open it to have more light. As far as I can remember the shutter worked perfectly well. We never had a bad experience with the windows or doors.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
Processo Vol 9 Pages 2307 to 2323
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2307
Specialist Examination Report 200707060-CR/L
Requester: DIC PJ Portimao
Fax: 399 of 8 May 2007
Date: 4 May 2007   
Photos 41 to 43: Details of the window of the bedroom from which the child disappeared where the non-existence of traces/clues of break-in/forced entry was verified.

In the photos taken by the police, they clearly show the shutter only halfway up and the windows closed. Dianne said SHE could not open it and SHE did not mention Gerry with her.

My statement of spelling was not to be taken as an insult, it was merely to demonstrate that as an American I spell it in American Standard English. I hope that I do not have to apologize for that.

Now, on to the money...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5932075/madeleine-mccann-maddie-cash-decision-dad-michael-whinham-unfair/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/26/madeleinemccann-probe-set-continue-government-grants-extra-funds/

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/madeleine-mccanns-parents-have-13-million-left-to-fund-search-for-missing-daughter-as-official-police-hunt-faces-the-axe/news-story/9610e6ac5ee64228675372b33c7f42d2

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/maddie-mccann-disappearance-media-in-bidding-war-for-interview-with-kate-and-gerry-mccann/news-story/79dcce5a1e27173342ea49ab14f09d34

Now, did she respond to police questioning?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_07-09-07.htm#p10p2557
Processos Vol X Pages 2555- 2556
Statement of identity and residence for Kate Healy McCann

"Asked, on May 03, 2007, at 22:00, when she entered the apartment what she saw and did, where he looked, and what she touched [handled], she did not respond."

"If she looked inside the cupboard of the couple's bedroom, she said No in response. Shown two photographs of the cupboard of her bedroom, and asked for a description of the contents, she did not respond."

"Asked for what reason the curtain behind the sofa in front of the side window, the photograph of which was shown to her, is moved [disordered], she did not respond. She did not respond to the question if someone [anyone] had passed [had gone; had walked] behind that sofa. "

"Asked how much time it took for the search that she made in the apartment after the detection of the disappearance of her daughter MADELEINE, she did not respond."

"Asked why she said from the outset that MADELEINE was kidnapped [abducted], she did not respond."

Do I need to post the rest of the rogatory report?

Oh, and Gerry mentioned the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in the US and did not say it was global. https://www.icmec.org/global-missing-childrens-center/


I think I have posted enough sources to support my claim.

[Brietta]

Thank you for your patience in waiting for me to come to answer as I had things to do.

OK, I go with the original interviews.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CASE_FILES_INDEX.htm
Michelle Thompson

"Kate continued that when she entered the apartment via the patio doors, a breeze hit her in the face as if a door or window was open. When she entered the children's room, the window was open, the blind had been forced and Madeleine had disappeared."

Leicestershire Police Squad
Witness Testimony
CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5?(3) e 5B; Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1

Dianne Webster
- However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed.
949 to 954 Witness statement of Dianne Webster 2007.05.11
955-Consent for moth swab of Dianne Webster 2007.05.11

Jill Renwick on GMTV 4 May, 2007
Jill Renwick, a family friend, told GMTV on 04 May: "She's obviously been taken as she couldn't have gone out on her own and the shutters had been forced open."

44 to 46   Witness statement of Claire Louise Fawkes (former Ocean Club holidaymaker) 2008.04.22)

It had a window which I think we never opened and a metal shutter that covered the entire window on the outside, but which was controlled from the inside of the bedroom either electronically or by a belt that was pulled. It was nearly always closed, but on occasions we would open it to have more light. As far as I can remember the shutter worked perfectly well. We never had a bad experience with the windows or doors.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
Processo Vol 9 Pages 2307 to 2323
09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2307
Specialist Examination Report 200707060-CR/L
Requester: DIC PJ Portimao
Fax: 399 of 8 May 2007
Date: 4 May 2007   
Photos 41 to 43: Details of the window of the bedroom from which the child disappeared where the non-existence of traces/clues of break-in/forced entry was verified.

In the photos taken by the police, they clearly show the shutter only halfway up and the windows closed. Dianne said SHE could not open it and SHE did not mention Gerry with her.

My statement of spelling was not to be taken as an insult, it was merely to demonstrate that as an American I spell it in American Standard English. I hope that I do not have to apologize for that.

Now, on to the money...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5932075/madeleine-mccann-maddie-cash-decision-dad-michael-whinham-unfair/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/26/madeleinemccann-probe-set-continue-government-grants-extra-funds/

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/madeleine-mccanns-parents-have-13-million-left-to-fund-search-for-missing-daughter-as-official-police-hunt-faces-the-axe/news-story/9610e6ac5ee64228675372b33c7f42d2

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/maddie-mccann-disappearance-media-in-bidding-war-for-interview-with-kate-and-gerry-mccann/news-story/79dcce5a1e27173342ea49ab14f09d34

Now, did she respond to police questioning?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_07-09-07.htm#p10p2557
Processos Vol X Pages 2555- 2556
Statement of identity and residence for Kate Healy McCann

"Asked, on May 03, 2007, at 22:00, when she entered the apartment what she saw and did, where he looked, and what she touched [handled], she did not respond."

"If she looked inside the cupboard of the couple's bedroom, she said No in response. Shown two photographs of the cupboard of her bedroom, and asked for a description of the contents, she did not respond."

"Asked for what reason the curtain behind the sofa in front of the side window, the photograph of which was shown to her, is moved [disordered], she did not respond. She did not respond to the question if someone [anyone] had passed [had gone; had walked] behind that sofa. "

"Asked how much time it took for the search that she made in the apartment after the detection of the disappearance of her daughter MADELEINE, she did not respond."

"Asked why she said from the outset that MADELEINE was kidnapped [abducted], she did not respond."

Do I need to post the rest of the rogatory report?

Oh, and Gerry mentioned the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in the US and did not say it was global. https://www.icmec.org/global-missing-childrens-center/


I think I have posted enough sources to support my claim.

Thank you. 
For future reference may I suggest when you make a statement which may require a cite it is a good idea to post the relevant cite in the post with the statement.
I’m not actually here to analyse cites.
They are requested information to ensure accuracy and to enable the reader to check sources.

I requested two cites from you
3: The police looked at the shutter and said it had not been jimmied.
When did they do and say that?  Cite, please.

The media was a cash cow for the McCanns, so yes, they have to account for every word, every detail, every statement.
Please provide appropriate cites for 'cash cow'

The cite you have provided http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm covers the first request.

In my opinion the cites you have provided do not substantiate your claim that the media was a cash cow for the McCanns.  I am not patronising you when I wonder if you are aware that the Government money being spent at the moment has nothing to do with the McCanns?  They don’t see a penny of it.  It is funding the search for a British citizen missing abroad, Madeleine McCann.
The “bidding war” mentioned in one of the cites is in my opinion a bit of a media invention …
Snip
A spokesman for Harpo Productions, which produces the Oprah Winfrey show in the US, confirmed they had approached the McCanns about an interview, but insisted they were not involved in a bidding war.
She said: "The Oprah Winfrey Show does not pay for news interviews."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576625/Madeleine-McCann-parents-in-1m-Oprah-bid.html


I was not in the least offended by your ‘American spelling’ and apologise if I gave that impression.
However in my opinion you have not substantiated that Kate claimed the window had been jemmied.

jemmy
verb
informal
past tense: jemmied; past participle: jemmied
1.   force open (a window or door) with a jemmy.
"a burglar jemmied his patio doors"

forced
adjective
1.   1.
obtained or imposed by coercion or physical power.
"there was no sign of a forced entry"

The second hand accounts you cite all used ‘forced’ which in my opinion is exactly what Kate and Gerry thought had happened.  They were unaware that the shutters could be raised from outside … which is why Gerry was checking that out and disturbed the original position when discovered.

Quote
6: If there had not been intentional subterfuge, she wouldn't have not responded to police questioning.
That is a totally erroneous statement.  She answered ALL the police questions and volunteered information later leaked to the press. End Quote

The arguido interviews have nothing at all to do with intentional subterfuge particularly as when interviewed as an arguido, Gerry answered in full despite legal advice not to.

As an American you will appreciate her non-compliance if you consider the fifth amendment to your constitution.
Quote
The Fifth Amendment prohibits government officials from abusing their authority during legal proceedings. It also protects individuals from self-incrimination. When an individual chooses to plead the fifth, he/she cannot be required to answer any questions or provide any information that may incriminate him/her. End Quote

Kate used her right to remain silent only when constituted as an arguida and had in all probability already answered them previously particularly as she is quoted as saying ...

Kate McCann said she could not explain anything more than she already had.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7542939.stm?lsf  Bearing in mind she had endured a eleven hour interrogation into the small hours preceding the arguida interview.

Snip
Portuguese police files released after the closure of the initial investigation reveal how Gerry and Kate McCann were forced to face a gruelling 11-hour interrogation as officers appeared to try and force a confession out of the heartbroken parents.
The grilling came despite advice from British forensics experts that the DNA evidence found behind the holiday apartment sofa and the McCanns' Renault Scenic hire care was 'inconclusive' and 'flawed', the Mirror reports.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/uk-news/kate-gerry-madelein-mccann-disappeared-12956690



These are two huge posts which even if anyone can be bothered reading through them stand a high probability of not surviving when the threads are edited.
Which is as good a reason as any for adding links to your posts at the time thus avoiding addenda such as these which probably bore the pants off most, if they can even be bothered to read them.

[Alice Purjorick]

Thank you. 
For future reference may I suggest when you make a statement which may require a cite it is a good idea to post the relevant cite in the post with the statement.
I’m not actually here to analyse cites.
They are requested information to ensure accuracy and to enable the reader to check sources.

I requested two cites from you
3: The police looked at the shutter and said it had not been jimmied.
When did they do and say that?  Cite, please.

The media was a cash cow for the McCanns, so yes, they have to account for every word, every detail, every statement.
Please provide appropriate cites for 'cash cow'

The cite you have provided http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm covers the first request.

In my opinion the cites you have provided do not substantiate your claim that the media was a cash cow for the McCanns.  I am not patronising you when I wonder if you are aware that the Government money being spent at the moment has nothing to do with the McCanns?  They don’t see a penny of it.  It is funding the search for a British citizen missing abroad, Madeleine McCann.
The “bidding war” mentioned in one of the cites is in my opinion a bit of a media invention …
Snip
A spokesman for Harpo Productions, which produces the Oprah Winfrey show in the US, confirmed they had approached the McCanns about an interview, but insisted they were not involved in a bidding war.
She said: "The Oprah Winfrey Show does not pay for news interviews."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576625/Madeleine-McCann-parents-in-1m-Oprah-bid.html


I was not in the least offended by your ‘American spelling’ and apologise if I gave that impression.
However in my opinion you have not substantiated that Kate claimed the window had been jemmied.

jemmy
verb
informal
past tense: jemmied; past participle: jemmied
1.   force open (a window or door) with a jemmy.
"a burglar jemmied his patio doors"

forced
adjective
1.   1.
obtained or imposed by coercion or physical power.
"there was no sign of a forced entry"

The second hand accounts you cite all used ‘forced’ which in my opinion is exactly what Kate and Gerry thought had happened.  They were unaware that the shutters could be raised from outside … which is why Gerry was checking that out and disturbed the original position when discovered.

Quote
6: If there had not been intentional subterfuge, she wouldn't have not responded to police questioning.
That is a totally erroneous statement.  She answered ALL the police questions and volunteered information later leaked to the press. End Quote

The arguido interviews have nothing at all to do with intentional subterfuge particularly as when interviewed as an arguido, Gerry answered in full despite legal advice not to.

As an American you will appreciate her non-compliance if you consider the fifth amendment to your constitution.
Quote
The Fifth Amendment prohibits government officials from abusing their authority during legal proceedings. It also protects individuals from self-incrimination. When an individual chooses to plead the fifth, he/she cannot be required to answer any questions or provide any information that may incriminate him/her. End Quote

Kate used her right to remain silent only when constituted as an arguida and had in all probability already answered them previously particularly as she is quoted as saying ...

Kate McCann said she could not explain anything more than she already had.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7542939.stm?lsf  Bearing in mind she had endured a eleven hour interrogation into the small hours preceding the arguida interview.

Snip
Portuguese police files released after the closure of the initial investigation reveal how Gerry and Kate McCann were forced to face a gruelling 11-hour interrogation as officers appeared to try and force a confession out of the heartbroken parents.
The grilling came despite advice from British forensics experts that the DNA evidence found behind the holiday apartment sofa and the McCanns' Renault Scenic hire care was 'inconclusive' and 'flawed', the Mirror reports.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/uk-news/kate-gerry-madelein-mccann-disappeared-12956690



[b]These are two huge posts which even if anyone can be bothered reading through them[/b] stand a high probability of not surviving when the threads are edited.
Which is as good a reason as any for adding links to your posts at the time thus avoiding addenda such as these which probably bore the pants off most, if they can even be bothered to read them.

Red bit.
Sound advice....who told you that?

[Robittybob1]

Certainly bore me.

[Miss Taken Identity]

Why would Kate embellish what happened?  She didn't have to justify in any way the fact of discovering one of the children was missing.  She only had to say something along the lines of: ... "I entered the apartment via the patio door, when I checked the children in their beds, I noticed the window was open etc etc etc ..."

She is not a stupid woman who would take the risk of over egging the pudding.  Had there been any intentional subterfuge ... why didn't someone actually 'jemmy' the shutter?

In my opinion, Kate described exactly what she saw ... why on earth wouldn't she?

Well, if her daughter had left the apartment  of her own accord -(perhaps to go and get her parents) and Kate noticed a gate or patio door open then she would have had to do a physical check- which they hadn't been doing they were only listening at the doors. (She has to justify a reason for doing a physical  check)This would negate the  'woke and wandered' scenario. So, what I  have come to believe is this huge dramatic event- cue dramatic music....the scene is set... like a silent movie...

 It certainly got the public behind them didn't it?  an abduction- via a jemmied widow  and them doctors and loving parents- sitting like in a garden like... well!

Oh, and not only that- they were left all alone ( )to go an look for their daughter who was abducted as the police were doing nothing! tsk.

Grrrrrreat PR. IMO

[Robittybob1]

Well, if her daughter had left the apartment  of her own accord -(perhaps to go and get her parents) and Kate noticed a gate or patio door open then she would have had to do a physical check- which they hadn't been doing they were only listening at the doors. (She has to justify a reason for doing a physical  check)This would negate the  'woke and wandered' scenario. So, what I  have come to believe is this huge dramatic event- cue dramatic music....the scene is set... like a silent movie...

 It certainly got the public behind them didn't it?  an abduction- via a jemmied widow  and them doctors and loving parents- sitting like in a garden like... well!

Oh, and not only that- they were left all alone ( )to go an look for their daughter who was abducted as the police were doing nothing! tsk.

Grrrrrreat PR. IMO

The door to the bedroom was more open than they had left it.

[Miss Taken Identity]

The door to the bedroom was more open than they had left it.

That is what they claim. I have suggested this was to give a reason for doing a physical check instead of just listening at the door.

IF the door had moved why did GERRY not open the door and check his children?  apparently by magic he saw his daughter, but Kate couldn't because it was too dark. oh..  hmmm

[Snowgirl]

The door to the bedroom was more open than they had left it.

So ? Gerry could have  inadvertently left it like that .

[Brietta]

Certainly bore me.

Me too ... however if a member puts work into a post it is disrespectful not to take that on board when answering it.
So it has to be answered as fully as possible, I think. 
The original post was to me as a member although my answer might include a mod suggestion, it had to be lengthy to address some of the points raised.
But in my opinion making both posts just too long to maintain interest.

For example ... did you read them in depth or even skim them?  or just think 'aaargh ... No Way!'

@kmoore 1967
Please don't let me put you off.  Just constructive criticism with which I'm sure you will agree.  I think you will make an excellent contribution to the forum ... it will be interesting having an American perspective on things.

[Alice Purjorick]

The door to the bedroom was more open than they had left it.

Was that by measurement, line of sight between two datum points or guesstimating do you believe?

[Robittybob1]

That is what they claim. I have suggested this was to give a reason for doing a physical check instead of just listening at the door.

IF the door had moved why did GERRY not open the door and check his children?  apparently by magic he saw his daughter, but Kate couldn't because it was too dark. oh..  hmmm

Your arguments appear faulty to me.  Kate wasn't doing a physical check but just returned the door to the usual position - then it slammed.  The slamming prompted the beginning of the physical check.
Gerry did go in and turned on the light as I have proved in a previous thread.

[Robittybob1]

Was that by measurement, line of sight between two datum points or guesstimating do you believe?

In Kate's estimation at the time IMO.  What else could it have been?

[Miss Taken Identity]

Was that by measurement, line of sight between two datum points or guesstimating do you believe?

The ole protractor... 

[Miss Taken Identity]

Your arguments appear faulty to me.  Kate wasn't doing a physical check but just returned the door to the usual position - then it slammed.  The slamming prompted the beginning of the physical check.
Gerry did go in and turned on the light as I have proved in a previous thread.

My argument removed the whole drama of the windows/doors/shutters being the source for Kate doing a physical check- she had no intention of doing so she claims.

There is no independent witness or physical evidence of any of this happening.

I am suggesting within someones theory- Kate could claim knew Maddie had disappeared by leaving the apartment, possibly by her own accord, *woke  and wandered* She didn't want to admit she left a door unlocked for this purpose, thus having her to take the blame for her daughters demise (whatever that was is). This is why the whole abductor story from the jemmied window came about IMO. All about PR.

 And I would go further to say IMO, this behaviour did have an negative impact on the search/investigation of their daughters mortal state.